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Quote:
Here are all the examples of Apostles working in plurality with other believers. You don't see big groups of 8 and 12 or more. Another "good idea", but not the way God works. It's not real life or realistic that a man could do this. Paul was single, but most of the others were married and this would be even more difficult.

Good observation.

Regarding the list that you provided. I just wanted to say how I was glad to see it displayed like that. It was like going up and down the aisle looking over the soldiers that stood for the testimony of Jesus Christ. The men (and women) who paid the price.

 2011/1/27 17:23
blandina
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Joined: 2011/1/25
Posts: 48


 Re:

Could be that it was an observation, but the writer may have(Journalist) called it a prophecy. You know how journalists can be! Sensational headlines to get their material read. They want to make a name for themselves just like a lot of other people.

Anyway, observation or prophecy - it surely is happening.

 2011/1/27 17:24Profile
blandina
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Joined: 2011/1/25
Posts: 48


 Re:

Quote:
Regarding the list that you provided. I just wanted to say how I was glad to see it displayed like that. It was like going up and down the aisle looking over the soldiers that stood for the testimony of Jesus Christ. The men (and women) who paid the price.



I know. It hit me that way, too. They were doers of the Word, not just Hearers. Their qualifications were few to none. They knew and loved the Lord.

 2011/1/27 17:27Profile
ADisciple
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 Re: Billy Graham's Prophecy

Two very good comments by Dr. Graham. Sad that it seems he himself didn't go that route.

Quote:
Then I would actually have twelve ministers among the laymen who in turn could take eight or ten or twelve more and teach them.



And sad to see that one word there: laymen.


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Allan Halton

 2011/1/27 17:50Profile
quentusio
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That is certainly interesting and while I don't disagree or agree with the structure it does remind me that the Methodist movement started with a small group of people that found a common ground among themselves in their passion for the gospel. Not to be argumentative but to add a counterpoint I would recommend Martyn Lloyd Jones' sermons on schism in the church (they can be found on his website if interested). He speaks of the right and wrong reasons for schism and remarks how the devil in his craftiness often leads the most passionate and intelligent Christians into this folly. I don't think that was what Graham was saying here but I could see the potential for a Christian to take it as that and run with it.


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Quentin Minson

 2011/1/27 18:25Profile
blandina
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Yes, interesting. I don't think Billy Graham is saying that schism is the cause, but I see why you might think this. Afterall, there are over 15,000 church splits a year in America. And Billy Graham could not have foreseen all the different reasons why God's people have left. It seems that he just saw them leaving without giving any further explanation.


 2011/1/28 0:07Profile
blandina
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 Re:

Quote:
And sad to see that one word there: laymen.



Yes, that is a very divisive word. The Lord Himself must not like it either for it divides the brethren. There should be no place for it in the church. There is certainly no mention of it in the Word except in the Old Testament.

Sad enough that the Catholic church's clergy/laity system is built on OT priesthood, but the Protestant church had to continue it also. The Holy Spirit is bringing more light today to the Church and showing us that we did not come out of the Catholic church, fully.

 2011/1/28 0:20Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Yes, that is a very divisive word. The Lord Himself must not like it either for it divides the brethren. There should be no place for it in the church. There is certainly no mention of it in the Word except in the Old Testament.

Sad enough that the Catholic church's clergy/laity system is built on OT priesthood, but the Protestant church had to continue it also. The Holy Spirit is bringing more light today to the Church and showing us that we did not come out of the Catholic church, fully.


I don't find it a bad word for the fact that nature itself teaches that there is authority. Authority and submission is a theme in marriage, in the Godhead and in the Church. Even in the world systems that God uses for His glory. We need to know our giftings that God has given us. God has and does raise leaders for the body of Christ to be servants to the flock of God but they are responsible more then others for the well being of the flock of God. 1 Peter 5 and other chapters speak clearly of leadership. The problem is not with a hiearchy setup the problem is with power-loving and grabbing men who love this and are full of pride.

A book that deals with this topic and teaches the principles of true authority, submission and humility is: A MUST READ BOOK: Touching Godliness through Submission
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=37106&forum=35&0

I highly recommend it. John Wesley died a church of England minister, His desire till the end was to reform and revival the current established system even though he was banned from most of its churches. He believed that God gave the authority for leadership and he honored that. The methodist system itself was very structured (even more the anglician church arguably). And there were leaders and a form of government Wesley being its head.

The Moravian Church though they made the statement very clearly that Jesus Christ is the sole head of the Church still had Zinzendorf assume main shepard position for the functional running of the churches with his vision. This is God's way and model to have no authority is to fall into great error and I believe if we individually cannot submit to healthy authority the problem could be our pride (which is something very dangerous).


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2011/1/28 0:48Profile
Areadymind
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 Re:

Quote:
The problem is not with a hierarchy setup the problem is with power-loving and grabbing men who love this and are full of pride.



Amen. It is amazing how error ALWAYS makes people swing the wrong way. I always tell people that it is not the Devil's lies that bother me. It is the truth he wraps them in. It seems to me as if error, whether that be doctrinal, or attitudinal, has the believers reaction in mind more than the actual event itself. That is to say, the purpose of the error, is not for the enemy to revel in the error itself, but rather to revel in the reaction that error begets.

Quote:
This is God's way and model to have no authority is to fall into great error and I believe if we individually cannot submit to healthy authority the problem could be our pride (which is something very dangerous).



Amen as well. "Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft." -1 Samuel 15:23. Our inability to submit to our brothers in Christ willingly, becoming the least, and promoting the more "external" members of the Body, may speak to the fact that we are malfunctioning, and gainsaying as Korah.

1 Peter 5...

By the way, just in case people do not notice, this website is literally loaded to the rafters with "leaders" sermons. Men who had positions of authority in the body. If it were not for that fact, there would be no website. I find it odd how often I see people on here decrying Godly authority. When this website could not even function apart from it.

An attitude that rejects authority is Satanic in its origin, and is the hallmark of end-time apostates. Jude 8, and Jude 11.


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Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2011/1/28 1:11Profile
ginnyrose
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 Re:

Quote:
The problem is not with a hierarchy setup the problem is with power-loving and grabbing men who love this and are full of pride.



And people who are vying for the same position.

Seems to me if all would consider "how can I be of the most help to....most, if not all, power struggles would cease. But if there is a bully, just leave and find some others who would welcome your help. We are here to help others, not bully them around or grumble when some one else calls the shots contrary to your likening.

A proper perspective of authority is liberating. When the WORD with the enabling power of the Holy Spirit is our authority, we find ourselves is positions of service that brings delight to those we serve and provides us with lots of satisfaction.

I know this is idealistic, we have to deal with the old man who wants the preeminence. But we must always continue to strive to live as Jesus did - He is the perfect teacher.

Consider: Jesus is God. He is the creator who made the earth and heavens in 6 days. (How much can you accomplish in 6 days?) But he chucked his power, his authority and became obedient....He learned obedience...He worked in the carpenters shop fashioning whatever with man-made tools into...This is a drastic step down from his ability as the creator of the universe. Amazing. No, mind-boggling! Does this teach us something?


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Sandra Miller

 2011/1/28 7:20Profile





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