Clinch Mountain, Virginia
| What Exactly Is The "Unforgiveable Sin?"|
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven. - Luke 12:10
I have come to understand that the "unforgiveable sin" is to credit satan with the works of the Holy Spirit, or to deny the Spirit altogether. This was the blasphemy Jesus was talking about. Am I right? Wrong? Is there more? What say ye?
| 2004/11/13 6:25||Profile|
| Re: What Exactly Is The "Unforgiveable Sin?"|
The word blasphmey in essence means to viciously slander and defame. In this case it would mean to viciously slander the Holy Spirit, who is the agent of drawing men to salvation... which makes blasphsmey of the Holy Spirit an impossible sin for God to forgive.
| 2004/11/13 6:32||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
| Re: What Exactly Is The "Unforgiveable Sin?"|
Mat 12:31 So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
Mat 12:32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come."
"[b]Mat 12:31[/b] - The blasphemy against the Spirit - How much stir has been made about this? How many sermons, yea, volumes, have been written concerning it? And yet there is nothing plainer in all the Bible. It is neither more nor less than the ascribing those miracles to the power of the devil, which Christ wrought by the power of the Holy Ghost. Mar_3:28; Luk_12:10.
[b]Mat 12:32[/b] - Whosoever speaketh against the Son of man - In any other respects: It shall be forgiven him - Upon his true repentance: But whosoever speaketh thus against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven, neither in this world nor in the world to come - This was a proverbial expression among the Jews, for a thing that would never be done. It here means farther, He shall not escape the punishment of it, either in this world, or in the world to come. The judgment of God shall overtake him, both here and hereafter."
John Wesley's Explanatory Notes
"[b]but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, shall not be forgiven unto men:[/b] by which is meant, not every ignorant denial of, and opposition to his deity and personality; nor all resistance of him in the external ministry of the word; nor every sin that is knowingly and wilfully committed; but it is a despiteful usage of the Spirit of grace, an opposing, contradicting, and denying the operations wrought, or doctrines revealed by him, against a man's own light and conscience, out of wilful and obstinate malice, on purpose to lessen the glory of God, and gratify his own lusts: such was the sin of the Scribes and Pharisees; who, though they knew the miracles of Christ were wrought by the Spirit of God, yet maliciously and obstinately imputed them to the devil, with a view to obscure the glory of Christ, and indulge their own wicked passions and resentments against him; which sin was unpardonable at that present time, as well as under that dispensation then to come, when the Spirit of God was poured down in a more plenteous manner.
[b]Mat 12:32 - And whosoever speaketh a word against the son of man,....[/b] By whom is meant, not any man, as Grotius thought, but the Lord Jesus Christ, so often called "the son of man", on account of his human nature, in which he appeared in great meanness and obscurity. Now many might, through ignorance of him, thinking him to be a mere man, and taking up with common fame, speak evil of him, deny him to be the Messiah, reproach him for the meanness of his parentage and education, and for the freedom of his conversation with publicans and sinners; and do many things contrary to his name, as Saul, whilst a Pharisee did, and thought he ought to do; and yet be afterwards convinced of their mistakes, and be brought to a sense and acknowledgment of them, and obtain pardoning grace and mercy, as Saul did, though a blasphemer; and who is an instance of what is here promised,
[b]it shall be forgiven him[/b] through the grace of God, the blood and mediation of Christ, under the application of the blessed Spirit.
[b]But whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost[/b], in the sense before declared,
[b]it shall not be forgiven him[/b]: not because the Holy Ghost is greater than Christ; or for want of efficacy in the blood of Christ; or because God cannot pardon it; but because such persons wilfully, maliciously, and obstinately oppose the Spirit of God, without whom there can be no application of pardon made; and remain in hardness of heart, are given up to a reprobate mind, and die in impenitence and unbelief, and so there is no forgiveness for them,
[b]neither in this world, nor in the world to come[/b]; that is; they shall never be forgiven, see Mar_3:29. The distinction here used, does not refer to a common one among the Jews, of the Jewish state and the times of the Messiah; but to the present state of life, and that which will be after, or upon death: and it does not suppose there may be forgiveness of other sins, though not of this, in the other world; but strikes at a notion the Jews had, that there are some sins, which repentance and the day of atonement expiate in this life; but there are others, which repentance and the day of atonement do not expiate; and these a man's death expiates, or makes atonement for (a). The form of confession used by sick persons is the following (b);
"I confess before thee, O Lord our God, and the God of our fathers, that my cure is in thy hands, and my death is in thy hands; if it be thy good pleasure, heal me with a perfect healing: but if I die, תהא מיתתי סליחה, "let my death be for the pardon", forgiveness, and atonement of all the sins, iniquities, and transgressions, which I have sinned, acted perversely in, and transgressed before thee; and give me my portion in paradise, and justify me "in the world to come", which is hidden for the righteous.''
But the sin against the Holy Ghost is such, as is not forgiven, neither before, nor at, nor after death, nor by it: all sins that are forgiven, are forgiven in this world, and that perfectly and at once; and all that are forgiven in this world, there will be a manifestation and declaration of the pardon of them in another; but such sins as are not forgiven here, there will be no declaration of the pardon of them hereafter. In short, the sense is, that the sin against the Holy Ghost never has forgiveness; it is not pardoned now, and consequently there will be no declaration of the pardon of it hereafter. The Jews use the phrase in the same sense (c); a certain sick man said to his son,
"give me water, and such certain food; but if not, I will not "forgive thee, neither in this world, nor in the world to come".''
That is, I will never forgive thee."
John Gill's Exposition
| 2004/11/13 9:03||Profile|
| Re: What exactly is the unforgivable sin?|
To expand on the question:
Further, could a Satanic cell go around simply asking people to speak ill of the Holy Spirit, and thus condemn them for eternity? Would it be this easy to destroy people's eternal destiny. Also, what if a person comes to Christ and asks for forgiveness of all his sin, but isn't sure if he has blasphemed the Holy Spirit. How can a person be sure that he has not blasphemed the spirit? Perhaps put another way, can a person who has blasphemed the Holy Spirit ever come to Christ for forgiveness? Could the enemy ever have a method of simply making someone say something verbal against the Spirit of God to condemn themselves? So, how does one blaspheme the Holy Spirit and how can one be sure he hasn't blasphemed the Holy Spirit? It disturbs me to think that someone could simply dare another person to say something that could condemn them eternally; that a single word could condemn a person. What do you think? I have brought more questions than answers, but I believe that it is an important issue. Thanks.
Partial answers to the questions:
The Christian Counselor's Pocket Guide (By Selwyn Hughes) describes the problem of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit as follows:
"This is often the most difficult problem to deal with since it is usually accompanied by emotional distress. Anyone who claims to have committed the unpardonable sin is hardly likely to have done so. If he had, he would have no feeling of concern over his soul's salvation and would manifest no desire to be forgiven. A person with this problem usually has deep emotional difficulties stemming from past relationships with parents or peers, and this restricts spiritual understanding. A person who lacked love in childhood tends to project his fears, guilts, and hurts on God. He may umagine God as unloving and uncaring like the people in his past. Nine times out of ten, therefore, this problem is psychological rather than spiritual. The Word of God is quick and sharp and powerful (Heb. 4:12). Use it to break through psychological barriers and bring about spiritual understanding. Explain that the unpardonable sin (Matt. 12:22-32) is a calculated resistance to God's Holy Spirit in which a person refuses to believe what deep in his heart he knows to be true. It is not something that happens in a moment but is a consistent and continued revolt against truth, light, and holiness, similar to the rebellion of the angels who cannot receive forgiveness or salvation. Keep using scriptures in the face of all argument. Patient and prayerful counseling will often bring about a solution to this problem." (pp. 35) Across from this description are some Bible References that deal with the same issue to give biblical credit to his explanation. They are as follows: "Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." (John 6:37), "If thou shalt confess . . . and believe in thine heart . . . thou shalt be saved." (Rom. 10:9), "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Rom 10:13), "Through his name . . . whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." (Acts 10:43), "Come, let us reason together . . . though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow." (Isa. 1:18), "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." (Matt. 11:28), "And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given unto you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you. For everyone that asketh receiveth."
In Matthew Henry's commentary is more good news:
"Here is a gracious assurance of the pardon of all sin upon gospel terms. Christ herein has set an example to the sons of men, to be ready to forgive words spoken against them. But humble and conscientious believers, at times are tempted to think they have committed the unpardonable sin, while those who have come the nearest to it, seldom have any fear about it. We may be sure that those who indeed repent and believe the gospel, have not committed this sin, or any other of the same kind; for repentance and faith are the special gifts of God, which he would not bestow on any man, if he were determined never to pardon him; and those who fear they have committed this sin give a good sign that they have not. The trembling, contrite sinner, has the witness in himself that this is not his case."
Further study can be found at the Preacher Study site, of which the page can be found on http://preacherstudy.com/blasph.html
| 2004/11/13 19:43||Profile|
The context of the Lords words on blasphemy against the Holy Spirit are important. They were spoken at a time of particular obstinacy by the leaders of Israel. In each account the Holy Spirit has clearly captured key elements. I think Lukes record is particularly interesting.
[b] And if I throw out the demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Because of this, they shall be your judges. But if I cast out the demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come on you. [/b] (Mat 12:27-28 LITV)
[b]And if I cast out the demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Because of this they shall be your judges. But if I cast out the demons by [u] finger of God[/u]en the kingdom of God has come upon you. [/b] (Luk 11:19-20 LITV)
This phrase the finger of God is used elsewhere in the scripture. In particular it occurs in the account of the confrontation between those who acted for God and those who acted for the demonic; [b] And the magicians did so with their enchantments to bring forth lice, but they could not: so there were lice upon man, and upon beast. Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is [u]the finger of God[/u]: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. [/b] (Exo 8:18-19 KJV) At a time when the kingdoms were in open warfare the priests of Egypt recognized that the source of Moses power was God Himself. Their use of the phrase is a warning to Pharaoh that this is plainly the work of God and that Pharaoh should take note of it. Pharaoh hardened his heart. In defiance of the light that he had received he resolutely set himself against God, and perished as a consequence.
In Christs day the same confrontation is in process, and it was equally plainly the finger of God. There could be no genuine doubt as to the source of Christs authority. The only remaining resistance was the consequence of defiance. They were sinning against the light in their words and actions. In attributing the works of Christ to the empowering of Satan they knew they were lying, and in propagating this they risked the ensnarement of others in their rebellion.
I see a link here with the reference in Hebrews; [b] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? [/b] (Heb 10:26-29 KJV) It is important to ask the question what kind of sin did the writer have in mind?. Well, plainly it is sin against the knowledge of the truth. In other words it is conscious rebellion against what a man knows to be true. The reference to Moses is significant;
[b] But the soul that doeth aught with a high hand, whether he be home-born or a sojourner, the same blasphemeth Jehovah; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. [/b] (Num 15:30 ASV)
[b] If there be found in the midst of thee, within any of thy gates which Jehovah thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that doeth that which is evil in the sight of Jehovah thy God, in transgressing his covenant, and hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, or the sun, or the moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; and it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, then shalt thou inquire diligently; and, behold, if it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel, then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, who hath done this evil thing, unto thy gates, even the man or the woman; and thou shalt stone them to death with stones. At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is to die be put to death; at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. [/b] (Deu 17:2-6 ASV) cf Deut 13:6.
The context here is treason. These are people who have known but have rejected the knowledge, consciously.
In the absolute sense this level of blasphemy can only be the crime of those who have truly known. [b] Thou shalt not take the name of Jehovah thy God in vain; for Jehovah will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. [/b] (Exo 20:7 ASV) Note; the name of Jehovah, thy God. This is a reference to people who while being with the covenant and in full knowledge of the truth, defiantly slander Gods character. IN this absolute sense only a member of the 'covenant' can commit act of blasphemy; Jehovah thy God. These are they who are wilfully and knowingly set themselves to fight against God and (Deut 13:6) to persuade others likewise.
This is exactly what the leaders of Israel were doing. They had seen the finger of God, and knew it, but refused to yield to the Son. Unless there is a 180 degree turn this condition is terminal.
| 2004/11/15 6:06||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
The context here is treason. These are people who have known but have rejected the knowledge, consciously.
Excellent Ron, what a perfect word, "treason".
Ye Old Websters states:
TREASON[/b], n. tree'zn. [L. traho. See Draw and Drag.]
Treason is the highest crime of a civil nature of which a man can be guilty. Its signification is different in different countries. In general, it is the offense of attempting to overthrow the government of the state [b]to which the offender owes allegiance, or of betraying the state into the hands of a foreign power[/b]. In monarchies, the killing of the king, or an attempt to take his life, is treason. In England, to imagine or compass the death of the king, or of the prince, or of the queen consort, or of the heir apparent of the crown, is high treason; as are many other offenses created by statute.
In the United States, treason is confined to the actual levying of war against the United States, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.
Treason in Great Britain, is of two kinds, high treason and petit treason. High treason is a crime that immediately affects the king or state; such as the offenses just enumerated. Petit treason involves a breach of fidelity, but affects individuals. Thus for a wife to kill her husband, a servant his master or lord, or an ecclesiastic his lord or ordinary, is petit treason. But in the United States this crime is unknown; the killing in the latter cases being murder only.
In the absolute sense this level of blasphemy can only be the crime of those who have truly known. Thou shalt not take the name of Jehovah thy God in vain; for Jehovah will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. (Exo 20:7 ASV) Note; the name of Jehovah, thy God. This is a reference to people who while being with the covenant and in full knowledge of the truth, defiantly slander Gods character. IN this absolute sense only a member of the 'covenant' can commit act of blasphemy; Jehovah thy God. These are they who are wilfully and knowingly set themselves to fight against God and (Deut 13:6) to persuade others likewise.
Which also makes perfect sense in why Jesus said: Mat 12:32 Whoever speaks [b]a word[/b] against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come."
Just noticed that parallel thought, that for one, who could speak against the Holy Spirit that doesn't know Him? And also how a sense of continuance is implied. Secondly, interesting how
"[b]a word[/b]" is used [b]against[/b] [i][b]the Son of Man[/b][/i] but is omitted [i][b]against the Holy Spirit[/b][/i]
Purposefully on purpose?
Seems to be some comparisons between Peter, Paul and ultimately Judas.
| 2004/11/15 7:59||Profile|
This is exactly what the leaders of Israel were doing. They had seen the finger of God, and knew it, but refused to yield to the Son. Unless there is a 180 degree turn this condition is termina
Bro. Ron is right on here. I often marvel at the hardness of the religious folk in the first century. Stephen told them ye do always resist the Holy Ghost; as your fathers did, so do ye. The Rabbi's (as they later came to be known) went to extremes in locking Christ out of the minds of the Jews. They used political means, religious means, and any means they could. This is what leveled anathema on their heads in 70 CE and 135 CE. The blood of Abel to Christ was leveled on the heads of those people.
What is the difference between men and devils when sin is committed in such light? Jesus told them; ye are of your father the devil, and his deeds you will do (para). The Devil sinned in full light and those that sat in darkness and saw a great light, sinned likewise in the light. It lends weight to the relationship between revelation and forgiveness. Paul was forgiven of his blasphemy and his compelling others to blaspheme because he did it ignorantly, in unbelief. (Acts 26:11; I Timothy 1:13) His case was different than the average Pharisee. Many of them were eye-witnesses of the finger of God at work in Christ.
Although Hebrews 6:2-4 addresses a different situation, still we see a pattern of what God will not tolerate in terms of sinning with great light. Here we read; For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. These are the most fearsome passages in all the Bible in my opinion. And they serve us as a warning that we ought not do despite unto the Spirit of Grace- having known better. Those who are illuminated do not have mercy when they sin againt the Holy Spirit- that one would who did it ignorantly in unbelief.
The unbelieving Jews spared no expense in protecting their authority. They hijacked the entire religion of Judaism and the Jews are locked up in Rabbinic Judaism to this day. Some are there ignorantly; some are in defiance. They reserve the right to over rule God if He were to speak with an audible voice, or in dreams, or can even overrule a true Prophet of God. The furnace of Hell burns quite HOT for these folk- I am quite sure of that.
Robert Wurtz II
| 2004/11/15 8:09||Profile|
| Re: Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit|
Can one say for certain that if one comes to crist he will be saved then? Could it be that someone who has blasphemed the Holy Spirit is then not able to spiritually accept Jesus and give their lives to Him? What I am trying to get at is, if someone believed in God and had not given their life to Him, but as say a teenager believed and still said that God was wrong on the basis of 1) there being so much suffering in the world 2) that it didn't sound quite right 3) that He was seen as so harsh on people for "no good reason"... that a person who believed in God yet would not accept him and said "I am not sure if there is even a God, and if there is a God He is likely evil because he leaves this world in such a mess. I think that a spiritual God exists in some form. But as I see it the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit must be evil if they can call themselves God and do nothing about the conditions on this Earth."
The person after having said this (and having not read the bible or gone to church since early toddler youth) then later deciding after receiving a greater insight into the truth, thus not having originally seen the full light and it is thus revealed unto them and they repent and ask Jesus for forgiveness -- can this person be saved?
What about a person who believed that God was truly Good, but that he simply didn't care (agnostic) because God didn't want to make himself obviously known. That, yes, he was sure that God (if he existed) was Good, and that he believed that God did exist. And believed that the Trinity was God. To explain further, had an inclination as to believing that if there was any God that it would be the God of the Trinity, but then saying that they are not willing to give up their lifestyle and that there must be something wrong with God's concept of "Good" because "I'm not that bad, nor are anyone else I know" and saying that the whole trinity was evil (though not knowing much about it) because of its such high "unreasonable" expectations of people, the person knowing only general cultural knowledge of God. Saying that the whole trinity was evil because their expression of what is right and wrong seemed way out of line. But then this person later hearing about the miracles that the Holy Spirit had done, and hearing why people need Jesus (that they have fallen short of the glory of God due to sin) and believing it and accepting it after obtaining deeper conviction that God actually did make sense ... would this person be saved. He once was ignorant, though not completely; he had belief but not assurance and knowledge, and came to repentence, confessed his sin, acknowledged that he was blind, etc. and asked for Jesus to come into his life, would Jesus save this person?
There are two concepts here to work with.. what do you think about the person in each of these cases. I hope I have explained it well enough, it is hard to describe these complicated scenarios sometimes.
Your honest answers are much appreciated.
Also, in a plainer way of putting it, if someone just says "The Holy Trinity are ridiculous" or "the holy spirit, whatever that is, if it actually exists is evil" would they be condemned?
Further, what of the person that has got involved in cults. Who had a belief that a God might exist, but had very little proof, and went around all day doing wrong things just for the sake of them being wrong as a rebellion against "the man," God, and authority in general. This person saying that he thought the whole trinity to be evil or off in some way, but then actually being strongly convicted of the truth and repenting - can this person be saved?
What I am thinking is that since no one comes to Jesus except those that the Father has enabled the mere act of being able to come to Christ for forgiveness is evidence that they have not committed the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, and that God would finish a work to completion that He had started. Is it safe to believe that if one has been prompted by the Holy Spirit to believe in God for CERTAIN, and has caused the person to didicate their life to Christ that they could not thus have blasphemed the Holy Spirit?
I have known someone who seemed to educate people about the Holy Spirit (so they would know who they were talking against) and would ask people then while online to speak against the Spirit in chat rooms (on ICQ or MSN). Could this person who had tried to get people to blaspheme the spirit have caused the condemnation of anyone? What about the moderator of the ICQ conversation, could he, after all that he had tried be saved?
| 2004/11/16 19:01||Profile|
I'm not a theologian or a Bible expert but I'm learning and thank the Lord for that.
There's a book that I would suggest you read. It's called "Grace Abounding" by John Bunyan and if I'm not mistaken it's on here under articles. If not, you should be able to find it online since it's not copyright protected any longer. There aren't many people who sruggled with this issue as did Bunyan and then again there are not many people that God poured His grace to in such a magnificant way as he did to Bunyan. Read it with a prayerful heart.
Even though it was written nearly 400 years ago, it's a powerful and transparent book of Bunyan's travail about the issue of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
Whenever I'm lead into repentance, I go to Romans 2:4 (and I really like the NIV, so I'm including it here) "Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?"
So if the Holy Spirit convicts me of sin (John 16:8-11) and I repent meaning I turn from it (i.e. renounce it) than I haven't blasphemed the Holy Spirit, nor have you. It's always the Holy Spirit that convicts of sin.
It's always God's kindness that leads to conviction of sin and repentance. We don't have the option of saying we'll I'll repent tomorrow because I may harden my heart and the Holy Spirit may turn me over to my sin.
Regarding your questions, I'll give you my own opinion and I pray that some of the shepherds who frequent S.I. will help as well.
Quote: I frankly don't believe we can "believe" without a full surrender to Him. The belief that Jesus can be Saviour and not Lord is not scriptural and very dangerous.
if someone believed in God and had not given their life to Him, but as say a teenager believed and still said that God was wrong...
So to answer your question as best as I can, I don't believe either hypothetical person you listed would be a believer. Even the demons believe in God. Our relationship with Jesus has to be more than a mental assent. In short, we have to walk with Jesus. You cannot walk with Jesus mentally. The Christian life is lived out as we walk daily with Jesus.
We have to surrender our life fully to Him. There are many scriptural references that I could reference.
I hope this may answer your inquiry at least in part.
| 2004/11/16 22:26||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
It seems that a lot of the questions you are asking are really not applicable here. What I mean is if you go back through some of the other commentary there is something a bit different going on as it relates to this.
For one, the context of the scripture is pointing towards attributing the works of Jesus to the devil;
[i]such was the sin of the Scribes and Pharisees; who, though they knew the miracles of Christ were wrought by the Spirit of God, yet maliciously and obstinately imputed them to the devil, with a view to obscure the glory of Christ, and indulge their own wicked passions and resentments against him;[/i]
Another hinge is in "[i]but because such persons wilfully, maliciously, and obstinately oppose the Spirit of God, without whom there can be no application of pardon made; and remain in hardness of heart, are given up to a reprobate mind, and die in impenitence and unbelief, and so there is no forgiveness for them"[/i]
I think the key word here is "[b]remain[/b]"
And actually as Ed (Gideons) noted, it works both ways and where I would have the same problem with the idea of "once saved always saved", you could just as well say "once condemned always condendmend"...if you remain there.
| 2004/11/16 23:58||Profile|