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Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

As long as Jesus was with them, how could they believe He was in them? Yes they believed, but did not know the another Person would be their lives when the Statement of Jesus "I will come" was a prophesy of Christ in You The Hope of Glory. AS the Apostles did not need to fast while Jesus was with them, but when He was Gone our of their site, then they would have need to fast. Fast for What?
The Spirit of Christ in you is not the physical properties of seeing, hearing and touching the Lord Jesus, this is what our Fast is. His Spirit born again in us had to be brought to light by Paul explaining the Mystery, "Christ in you the hope of Glory". The How of this; Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Forth demention living, as if it happened the same time we were born again. No time in Heaven. When I was born again I was crucified with Him then and He is now my Spirit, where before Satan was my nature and spirit. Now we are the Sons of God.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2011/2/4 11:41Profile
RainMan
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Joined: 2010/4/21
Posts: 227


 Re:

Quote:
As long as Jesus was with them, how could they believe He was in them?



To add to what was said. Paul asked them if they were baptized when they believed and they said no. They had not received or even known about the baptism of the holy spirit until Paul asked the question of them. Paul didn't persuade them that Christ was already in them as they were believers. He baptized them, laid hands on them and they received the holy ghost. Faith in Christ Jesus does indeed Christ is in our hearts but is the initial measure of faith the same as being immersed in the spirit. Is receiving a measure of faith the same as being immersed in it (speaking allegorically)

 2011/2/4 12:01Profile









 Re: Baptism of the Holy Spirit

Hi RainMan

Quote:
"Jews who had not yet heard of Jesus Christ through faith in whom they would become eligible to receive the Holy Spirit." paul said they believed and didnt preach Christ to them. Read Acts 19 and analyze carefully what was said and what happened. You will see that christ was not preached pauls assumption was they were believers already. Thats why he goes to the question i like "DID YOU RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT WHEN YOU BELIEVED". unlike and ealier account in acts when peter expounded on old testament to preach chirst to 3000 who would be saved we see no such account. Pauls question was simply "DID YOU RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT WHEN YOU BELIEVED"

The reason I said what I did is, v 4.

You said
Quote:
The disciples of john were not preached to they were baptize as they already believed in Jesus.



But 4 And Paul said,

John baptized with the baptism of repentance, continually telling the people that they should believe in the One Who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus


That was preaching Jesus!

Quote:
While we can infer correctly that the disciples of john should have known about the holy spirit the actual fact is they didn't as stated by the scripture . The disciples of John said for themselves

2And he asked them, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed [on Jesus as the Christ]? And they said, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."

The Amplified Bible seems to agree that they were disciples of Jesus, not John.

I can see that they may have been disciples in the same way as Christ's disciples also 'believed', but had no idea what the baptism of the Holy Spirit was or would do to them, until they experienced it at Pentecost DESPITE having heard John preach, and been present at Jesus' baptism. However, Jesus disciples were believing in Him, He was with them physically. It is different entirely to believe on Him without seeing Him.



RainMan, the question is not 'did they believe?' as clearly they did. Abraham also 'believed' God. But until Pentecost, the Holy Spirit had not been poured out.

The opening of the scriptures to their understanding was possible because Christ Himself was teaching them. They did not need the Holy Spirit to understand. Christ Himself was prophesying the word into their hearts.

It is the same kind of event as when He had told different people to 'Go and sin no more', or, in any of the times He spoke healing or deliverance to a person who had come to Him for help.



 2011/2/4 12:43









 Re: Baptism of the Holy Spirit


To wedied, (Edited - corrections)

Sorry, I didn't see your post till now.

Quote:
As I understand it, in John 20 they were born-again when Jesus gave them the Spirit.

In Acts 2 they were baptised in the Holy Spirit and Power.

2 separate experiences.

I am not arguing for one, or two, experiences, or not. What I've tried to show is, that the disciples lived in real time through a series of experiences, the culmination of which was on the day of Pentecost.

Therefore, both what happened to them (a kind of slow-mo Pentecost compared with the 3000 in Jerusalem in Acts 2), and what happened in Acts 2, are valid experiences.

However, this is qualified by the fact that the Holy Spirit had not been poured out until Pentecost.

I fully accept that Christ recommissioned them as His apostles, sending them precisely as His Father had sent Him. By the time Jesus said this, the disciples had a better idea of what was involved in following Him in His Apostleship.

If you wish to support that the disciples had been 'born of the Spirit' (John 3) - that is, 'born from above' - a new birth, second birth - 'born again' - then where is the scriptural evidence that their behaviour after Jesus breathed on them (Thomas not being present at the time He did), was any different from before?

In what ministry did they continue to be involved, after Gethsemane?

Indeed, what difference does new birth make when it happens?

Not only in the Old Testament, but in my own experience, it is possible to be forgiven of sins, without being born again.



 2011/2/4 12:53
wedied
Member



Joined: 2011/1/29
Posts: 22


 Re:

Thanks for reply. I will consider what you said.

 2011/2/4 12:59Profile









 Re: Baptism of the Holy Spirit


Hi RainMan,

Please kindly read my reply to wedied, and feel free to respond as well.

In your previous post, you asked the following question.

Quote:
The point im trying to get to is that [is the hearing of the word(gospel) that produces faith the same as receiving the holy spirit?

As I've already said, I believe the receiving of the Holy Spirit is to a certain extent dependent on what has been preached. Not only that, but the willingness of the person hearing that word, to receive the Holy Spirit. (See Acts 14 again.)

Quote:
They had not received or even known about the baptism of the holy spirit until Paul asked the question of them. Paul didn't persuade them that Christ was already in them as they were believers.

Please could you clarify the second sentence from your previous post?

Are you implying that they already had heard of Christ and therefore the Holy Spirit (of which they had not heard) was IN them (unknown to them)?

Therefore, all that was lacking was,

1) they had not been baptised (in water) in the name of Jesus, and

2) had not received 'power from on high' to speak in tongues, prophesy etc?

 2011/2/4 13:04
RainMan
Member



Joined: 2010/4/21
Posts: 227


 Re: Baptism of the Holy Spirit

Quote:
Please could you clarify the second sentence from your previous post? Are you implying that they already had heard of Christ and therefore the Holy Spirit (of which they had not heard) was IN them (unknown to them)?




In Acts paul asks a couple of diciples a simple question

"Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?"

His question tells us they were believers in Christ. Belief in this context can only refer to christ as the mesiah.

These disciples were found in ephesus . While they were indeed baptised in the baptism of john they were followers of jesus. As stated previosuly they believed in Jesus but in thier own words had never heard of the holy spirit. These same diciples paul laid hands on followed him around on his ministry work to the churches for two years.

The common inference is because these followers had recieved the baptism of john they must have been john the baptist diciples. Personally it makes no difference to me what is clear is that they were "BELIEVERS[in christ the mesiah]" and had not been baptised in the name of the lord or recieved the holy spirit. Faith comes by hearing so if they believed christ was the mesiah they had already been preached to.

The thief on the cross was not baptised in the holy spirit or speak in tongues yet he was saved was he not? what about the heroes of faith in Hebrews 11 did was any of them baptised in the holy spirit? What about young pastor timothy we know he was indeed saved but we also know he recieved special impartation of power when paul laid hands onb him at his ordination.

Again i ask is the gift of faith the same as the baptism of the holy spirit.

 2011/2/4 19:36Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible
John 7:39
Verse 39. Of the Spirit. Of the Holy Spirit, that should be sent down to attend their preaching and to convert sinners.
For the Holy Ghost was not yet given. Was not given in such full and large measures as should be after Jesus had ascended to heaven. Certain measures of the influences of the Spirit had been always given in the conversion and sanctification of the ancient saints and prophets; but that abundant and full effusion which the apostles were permitted afterward to behold had not yet been given. See Ac 2:1-12; 10:44-45.

Jesus was not yet glorified. Jesus had not yet ascended to heaven--to the glory and honour that awaited him there. It was a part of the arrangement in the work of redemption that the influences of the Holy Spirit should descend chiefly after the death of Jesus, as that death was the procuring cause of this great blessing. Hence he said (Joh 16:7), "It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart I will send him unto you." See also Joh 16:8-12; 14:15-16,26. Comp. Eph 4:8-11.

{i} "the Spirit" Isa 44:3; Joe 2:28; Joh 16:7; Ac 2:17,33*

John 14:16-21 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

If He has come again, where is He? He is born again in every believer. What does it take to be saved? "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". How do we believe? Who has convicted us and shows us we need a Savior? The Holy Spirit convicts the world from outside, The Holy Spirit convicts and give the Faith of the Son of God born again in us to the believer and we have the Whole bucked Of Grace. Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. We can argue all we want about the "grace" or the "faith", but it takes both for us to be a son. The Father is Father because He has birthed an Incorruptable Seed in us, the Seed if Jesus Christ the only Begotten Son, that makes us sons. Without the Seed from the Father there is no possibility of sonship, or that He is our Father.

How are we fathers? Think on this.

Has He Come? If the answer is Yes!, He has given us the Holy Spirit by baptism of the Holy Spirit.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Has He already received us? Are we not already seated with Him in the Heavenlies.

1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2011/2/4 20:52Profile









 Re: Baptism of the Holy Spirit

Quote:
Again i ask is the gift of faith the same as the baptism of the holy spirit.

No.

They believed in the same way those in Hebrews 11 believed, of whom the writer said: 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


1 Cor 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;


If they had not received the Holy Spirit, they could not have received the gift of faith to which Paul alludes above.


Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

In Ephesians, Paul is distinguishing faith and works [of the law] as a means of salvation.

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,


Paul's point is, that before the law, although sin had not been highlighted to the people's understanding as it was BY the law, faith was counted for righteousness.

But after the law:

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:


So, in respect of the Ephesians, there is a bit of a question mark. I was going to suggest they were not Jewish, and then I thought they must have been to have received John's baptism, but... soldiers were receiving the baptism of John, and weren't they Gentiles?

Either way, by the time Paul met those Ephesians, the Holy Spirit has been poured out on the Gentiles, and these believers-in-the-name-of-Jesus had lagged behind in receiving the good of His death, resurrection, and Pentecost.



 2011/2/4 20:57





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