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RainMan
Member



Joined: 2010/4/21
Posts: 227


 Re: Lets not get our tongue in a twist

Quote:
I must say like Paul said, “I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:” (1 Cor 14.18). If those of you (who do not speak in tongues) are content in your walk with God... praise His holy name! I don’t think any less of you. I am content in my walk with God speaking and praying in tongues... praise God for the gift(s)! I hope you can honestly say that you don’t think any less of me. God bless us all, Lisa



I echo that sentiment praying in tongues (glossa) is a wonderful gift(has made me somewhat lazy in my prayer in the understanding). I encourage everyone to believe God for the gifts that will enable them to fulfill their divine calling. Many people believe the gift of tongues(dialektos) is less relevant today and this may be the case but people have confused this with the gift of tongues (glossa) which is still in force today. Many ignore tongues because we havent been taught the difference contextaully between the two. One (dialektos) was seen on pentecost and used that day to spread the gospel in one day to every corner of the earth through 3000 converts. The other is a private prayer language that can be used for personal spirtual edification and prophesy when interpretation is presented

Sidenote on tongues

glossa = private prayer language (often without interpretation)

dialektos = gift of speaking and understanding known languages

Anyone who claims to be able to witness the gospel in dialektos must be able to communicate like peter did(if his message was in tongues) answering the questions that was asked of him. Glossa is primarily for prayer (but can be the equivalent of prophesy where interpretation is present). Tongues (glossa) is a gift that the holy spirit still gives to his church today. Those who have it know just how much it is a blessing to be able to pray in tongues. For me its the koinoia(fellowship) with the giver off these gifts i cherish the most. Its his presence. Many have erroneously closed thier hearts to the blessings of God as they have assumed dialektos (tongues) is no longer as important which may be right but dialektos is earthly language while glossa is heavenly. The spirit still gives the gift of glossa to those who want it.

 2011/1/31 12:01Profile









 Re: Baptism of the Holy Spirit


Hi RainMan,

Thanks for your post at end of p14. I'd like to clarify a tiny bit further.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.



I think the disciples had come out of the upper room, and people who were already outside in the cool of the morning (because it was harvestime - good hot weather), heard them speaking in tongues, and called others to witness what was happening. Then those people also heard the disciples glorfying God in their own dialects.


'... we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. 12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. 14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said...'


You're right to emphasise that Peter said a great deal besides.

The New Testament is full of allusions to sermons of which we have very little detail, because they were all based on Old Testament scriptures.

This is one reason those 3000 Jews were willing to believe Peter. They were devout, and knew the promises about Messiah. They may have been in Jerusalem at times during Jesus' life on earth, and may even have heard Him or been healed by Him, but there was always controversy about who he was, because the religious authorities obviously did not follow Him. This particular year, they may have been among the crowds who called for His crucifixion, or, He had been crucified before they had arrived for Pentecost. Word of His resurrection, and His ascension ten days earlier, would have been around. Now they themselves had witnessed a supernatural event.

 2011/1/31 16:40
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re: Baptism of the Holy Spirit

Addressing the original post:

I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit by 1)asking for it 2)seeking God Himself 3) realizing that I focused more on the sins of others than correcting my own sin.

I just heard Ravenhill preaching about this experience like it was God invading humanity, and something about it really interested me. I began setting time apart to pray at night, often falling asleep on the floor in prayer and waking up at different times in the morning.

I was working with a ministry at the time and just noticed this severe lack in my life and work; this experience that Ravenhill spoke of seemed to be the answer. I must say that whether it is has two sides.

The way it happened was very strange. Twice in one day I just began to weep and sort of slump on the floor. While on the way to church later this same day, yes, while driving (I got saved while driving, by the way), I was overcome with a sense of God I have never experienced before. I shouted and wept like a mad man (I am a pretty level-headed gent, too). As soon as I parked I again slumped and cried, hoping no one in the parking lot would see me. They would surely think I had lost it.

I happened, by God's grace I believe, upon Duncan Campbell's testimony of his experience and thought, hey man, that's me. I didn't speak in tongues, although I later tried and still today hold a view of ignorance on this subject (willing to hear everyone's view, not in opposition to any as long as the rest of your theology is correct).

The reason I said that the experience was a two-sided coin is this: I think that the baptism of the Holy Ghost is missing in much of our faith, but I expected God to almost "auto-pilot" my walk. In honesty, I thought I would see instant conversions and instant miracles, but the real change was directed at me. I went to prayer meetings at my church and would just weep and weep while I prayed.

I wish I could say I maintained my prayer life; but I didn't. I believe the experience is real and I hope to be filled once again (if not multiple times). I have since had ups and downs with my prayer life but still believe that it is God-honoring to seek to be filled with His Spirit.

Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

Love to talk about the topic with anyone that will listen.


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2011/2/2 23:54Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

Had to throw this in, too:

Here are some preachers on this site that talk in detail about receiving a baptism of the Holy Ghost that I recommend:

Charles Finney

D L Moody

R A Torrey

Evan Roberts

Duncan Campbell

J Edwin Orr

Charles Culpepper

Paul Washer

Sword of the Lord Publishers has a booklet called "How Great Soulwinners Were Filled With the Holy Spirit," by John R Rice that includes testimonies of many of the above men. It's an eye-opening read every time I go back to it.


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2011/2/3 0:48Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

I received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit when I was 18. I recall another young lady who was a long time friend of mine also received the Baptism the same night. We prayed in tongues, and then began to sing in unison, a song neither of us had ever heard. Same words, same tune, unknown language, unknown tune, flawlessly. Oh the sweet, sweet presence of God that we felt. My life has never been the same since.

I remember reading a book called (I think), "They Speak with Other Tongues". It was by John Sherrill who was a writer for guideposts. He wrote for the magazine, but was not saved. After he was born again, he began to hear a lot about tongues. (This was during the Charismatic renewall.) He went on a quest to discover what this was all about. His story is very interesting, and I think would bless someone with questions about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Having grown up a pentecostal, I just took it for granted, but many from denominational backgrounds have doubts and questions.


_________________
Travis

 2011/2/3 9:54Profile
RainMan
Member



Joined: 2010/4/21
Posts: 227


 Re:

Some say there is no such thing as a "second blessing" and that we are baptized into Christ when we believe. I personally think we should study carefully the difference of being baptized into Christ and being baptized of him. some will say there is no difference. But i have a couple of questions that i would like to ask

1. Did the apostles not believe in Christ before Pentecost?

2.Had they not already received the holy spirit before pentecost?

3.If 1 & 2 are true then where the apostles not already believers and therefore baptized into Christ.

4.The disciples of John(the baptist) preached Jesus, yet had no knowledge of the existence of the holy spirit. How were they able to believe in the first place? and why was it that they believed in Jesus but it wasn't until the apostle prayed for them and laid hands that they received the baptism of the holy spirit and spoke in tongues?

5. Does the account of the apostles of john in acts and the Pentecost experience of the apostles not suggest that believers are not always baptized the moment they believe?
Is receiving of the initial gift of faith to believe in the messiah the same as receiving the empowerment for witness.

 2011/2/4 5:01Profile









 Re: Baptism of the Holy Spirit

Quote:
1. Did the apostles not believe in Christ before Pentecost?

Yes; and no - as we observe when they left Him.

Quote:
2.Had they not already received the holy spirit before pentecost?

No. He 'gave' them 'power and authority'. In John 20, I believe He prophesied over them with regard to baptism in the Spirit, and also commissioned them again, now that He had risen from the dead. In that particular moment of commissioning, they were bound to understand that their death was included. Before the cross, the disciples had not understood why He should die. In fact, if we don't understand why we should die (spiritually, forsaking sin and self), our ministry will remain as powerless as the disciples', until after Pentecost.

Luke 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. 2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.

Luke 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained. 24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

Quote:
3.If 1 & 2 are true then where the apostles not already believers and therefore baptized into Christ.

When Jesus was baptised, He prefigured His own death. No-one quite understood this at the time, but Jesus did. The discussion between Jesus and John is about sinfulness. John recognised that he himself needed baptism in the Holy Spirit but had to watch as God confirmed to him through seeing the dove descend on Jesus, that Jesus was the Baptiser in Spirit, while himself dying before Pentecost, still having not received the gift.

John had been preaching to repent, to turn from sin. There was no difference in this respect with regard to baptism into Jesus' name, because when Jesus began to preach, His first word also was 'Repent!'

Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: REPENT ye, and believe the gospel.

At this point in time, no-one had been baptised in the Holy Spirit, BUT, they HAD RECEIVED REMISSION OF SINS through faith, shown by the act of being baptised in water.

Remember, the Old Covenant was still in operation. God was still looking for the physical obedience to outward ordinances, of which baptism for Jews was the latest. No-one disputed that John was a prphet sent by God. We know this because he had his own disciples, and crowds came to be baptised, sincerely asking how they could show they'd had a change of heart.

Luke 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 10 And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then? 11 He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise. 12 Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do? 13 And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you. 14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse [any] falsely; and be content with your wages. 15 And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;


When Jesus' disciples started baptising, the message was the same. John was in prison quite soon after that, from where he sent a message to Jesus asking if He was indeed the one whom John hoped.

Luke 7:22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.


This history of baptism in water for remission of sins, explains Peter's answer to the crowd in Acts 2, which gave the same order Peter himself had experienced over three years.

v 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Later, in Acts 10, God put that to confusion. Not only had Peter been sent to preach to a Gentile household, but the Holy Ghost was poured out on them before they had been baptised in water! Thus, as Anaias had said to Paul in Acts 9, to arise and be baptised to wash his sins away, Peter was immediately ready to baptise Cornelius and all.

 2011/2/4 9:15
wedied
Member



Joined: 2011/1/29
Posts: 22


 Re:

As I understand it, in John 20 they were born-again when Jesus gave them the Spirit.

In Acts 2 they were baptised in the Holy Spirit and Power.

2 separate experiences.

 2011/2/4 9:28Profile









 Re: Baptism of the Holy Spirit

Quote:
4.The disciples of John(the baptist) preached Jesus, yet had no knowledge of the existence of the holy spirit.

By the time the disciples of John were preaching Jesus, they were Jesus' disciples. I would suggest they weren't quite preaching Jesus in the way Paul did, and we do, but they preached the kingdom of heaven being at hand, and to demonstrate just how close it was, they were given power by Jesus (eventually), to do the same kind of miracles they had watched Him do.

As to their knowledge of the Holy Spirit, please reread John 1.

The Holy Spirit was not a new concept to the Jews.

Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:


One could easily say the Holy Spirit was not a new concept to Gentiles either.

Exodus 14:21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go [back] by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry [land], and the waters were divided.

Joshua 5:1 And it came to pass, when all the kings of the Amorites, which [were] on the side of Jordan westward, and all the kings of the Canaanites, which [were] by the sea, heard that the LORD had dried up the waters of Jordan from before the children of Israel, until we were passed over, that their heart melted, neither was there spirit in them any more, because of the children of Israel.

Joshua 2:8 And before they were laid down, she [Rahab] came up unto them upon the roof; 9 And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you. 10 For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that [were] on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed. 11 And as soon as we had heard [these things], our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he [is] God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.

1 Kings 19:11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; [but] the LORD [was] not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; [but] the LORD [was] not in the earthquake:

2 Kings 1:10 And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, [Samaritans] If I [be] a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.

2 Kings 1:12 And Elijah answered and said unto them, [Samaritans] If I [be] a man of God, let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And the fire of God came down from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.

Quote:
5. Does the account of the apostles of john in acts and the Pentecost experience of the apostles not suggest that believers are not always baptized the moment they believe?

I think you are misunderstanding this reference to John's baptism. They were not quite 'apostles of john' (as an apostle is one who is sent on a mission), but rather disciples (followers of John), Jews who had not yet heard of Jesus Christ through faith in whom they would become eligible to receive the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.


It is notable that Paul insisted on baptising them again in Jesus' name. We could discuss why this might be, but I suspect he wanted to see them put into action the belief that Jesus was the long-awaited Messiah of whom they had heard all their lives.

Quote:
Is receiving of the initial gift of faith to believe in the messiah the same as receiving the empowerment for witness.

I believe it can be. But, as we see in Acts 19, if Christ has not been preached, there is no Holy Ghost to them.

In Acts 10, Peter spoke only of Jesus and how He was the fulfilment of prophecy, and as they 'heard the word', the Holy Spirit fell on them. I think in this case, 'hear'ing refers also to receiving. Had they rejected the word they heard, they could not have received the Holy Spirt.

Acts 14:1 And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.

2 But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles, and made their minds evil affected against the brethren. 3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.

4 But the multitude of the city was divided: and part held with the Jews, and part with the apostles.

 2011/2/4 9:59
RainMan
Member



Joined: 2010/4/21
Posts: 227


 Re:

Quote:
As to their knowledge of the Holy Spirit, please reread John 1.



Acts 19 (Amplified Bible)

Acts 19
1WHILE APOLLOS was in Corinth, Paul went through the upper inland districts and came down to Ephesus. There he found some disciples.

2And he asked them, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed [on Jesus as the Christ]? And they said, No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.

3And he asked, Into what [baptism] then were you baptized? They said, Into John's baptism.

4And Paul said, John baptized with the baptism of repentance, continually telling the people that they should believe in the One Who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus [having a conviction full of joyful trust that He is Christ, the Messiah, and being obedient to Him].

5On hearing this they were baptized [again, this time] in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6And as Paul laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spoke in [foreign, unknown] tongues (languages) and prophesied.

7There were about twelve of them in all.



While we can infer correctly that the disciples of john should have known about the holy spirit the actual fact is they didn't as stated by the scripture . The disciples of John said for themselves

2And he asked them, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed [on Jesus as the Christ]? And they said, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."

Remember explicit always trumps inferred truth. While we can rightly infer that they should have known about the holy spirit we can see explicitly from what they said that they didn't. There is a significance to them being believers who hadn't yet been baptized. Appolos i think is another such example but can remember where in acts it is.


Quote:

I think you are misunderstanding this reference to John's baptism. They were not quite 'apostles of john' (as an apostle is one who is sent on a mission), but rather disciples (followers of John), Jews who had not yet heard of Jesus Christ through faith in whom they would become eligible to receive the Holy Spirit.


Sorry that was simply a typo i meant disciple. But as disciples of John they were told to follow the messiah.
"Jews who had not yet heard of Jesus Christ through faith in whom they would become eligible to receive the Holy Spirit." paul said they believed and didnt preach Christ to them. Read Acts 19 and analyze carefully what was said and what happened. You will see that christ was not preached pauls assumption was they were believers already. Thats why he goes to the question i like "DID YOU RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT WHEN YOU BELIEVED". unlike and ealier account in acts when peter expounded on old testament to preach chirst to 3000 who would be saved we see no such account. Pauls question was simply "DID YOU RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT WHEN YOU BELIEVED"

Quote:


Is receiving of the initial gift of faith to believe in the messiah the same as receiving the empowerment for witness.

I believe it can be. But, as we see in Acts 19, if Christ has not been preached, there is no Holy Ghost to them.




The point im trying to get to is that [is the hearing of the word(gospel) that produces faith the same as receiving the holy spirit?]. The disciples of john were not preached to they were baptize as they already believed in Jesus. Paul didnt ask if they believed he could discern they did thats why he asked them "Did you receive the Holy Spirit *****when you believed***** [on Jesus as the Christ]? " to which they said a resounding NO.




[b]
Lets look at the dialogue / Sequence of events
[/b]
Paul: Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?
Disciples: No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.
Paul: Then what baptism did you receive?
Disciples: Johns baptism
Paul: John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus

On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[b] and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all


1. They already believed as Paul doesn't question this or even preach Christ. He merely asked them if they recieved the holy spirit when they believed to which there answer was no.
2. They didnt know there was a holy spirit.
3.After explaining to them paul laid his hands on these already believing disciples and they recieved the holy spirit.


Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed(in who? in what?)?
Why ask this question if all believers recieved the baptism of the holy spirit when they believe?


Luke 24:45 (Amplified Bible)

45Then He [thoroughly] opened up their minds to understand the Scripture

The disciples were already believers before pentecost. In fact Peter had already called him the messiah before his death to which Jesus said "Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you......"


maybe this will make what i am saying clearer.

 2011/2/4 11:14Profile





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