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staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1507


 Re:

Hi David,
Firstly I in my opinion you can understand the endtimes as it relates to the church or to the Jews unless you understand the relationship of Elijah and The Antichrist.
I think this ministry is misunderstood and underplayed.
Firstly I heard it said that the Elijah ministry is a transitional ministry that over laps the end of one and the start off another for instance John ended the old testement and started the new .Secondly John the baptist is described by himself as friend of the groom.I found this discription of what a friend of the groom meant:

This is a cultural reference. The fiend of the bridegroom assisted the Jewish groom by making the prior arrangements for his marriage. He brought the couple together. Perhaps the reference in is verse to Johns standing and hearing the bridegroom paints the picture of the best friend of the groom waiting at the bride's home for the arrival of the groom.

Part of the preparation duties John had was to make sure the bride was ready.
Johns ministry overlapped dipensations and so will the two witnesses.Elijah overlapped two different eras two but it is so long since I studied it I cant remember the era's
The fire falling on mt carmel (fire meaning the holy spirit) and is a type of the spirit outpoured.
I would be classified has a mid trib but this is an innaccurate classification has the tribulation or time of judgement is 3.5 yrs or 1260 days or 42 months or time times and half a time.So in fact I do hold to pre trib view.
But if you study the end times without taking into account Elijah story in Kings and Ahab being a type of the antichrist or the relationship between Elijah and 42mths then you will miss most of the timing.I suggest you read the account again with ahab being a type of antichrist and jezebel being a type of false relgion.For instance Ahab wanted the vineyard and Jezebel helped get it for him but ELijah stepped in would look totally different,staff

 2011/1/16 19:08Profile
davidc
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Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

Hello Staff

Your reply is very interesting and I will certainly study the passages. I see what you mean about John Baptist having an overlapping ministry, and I will see how this applies to Elijah. It may be a few days before I can reply.

The problem is that it does not include the doctrine of the imminence of Christ. But you said you would look again at this aspect. I think it is important that our hope and daily expectation is His return, and not any other event.

Love in Christ

David


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david

 2011/1/17 11:50Profile
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 Re:

hi all,Just had a thought today on imminence and maybe you can help me.Why have we prophets in the new testement?If they prophesy of an event surely that event has to pass before the lord returns or does it?

 2011/1/17 19:59Profile
derektina
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Joined: 2010/3/28
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 Re: The LAST OUTPOURING by David Wilkerson

@ Greg Gordon's post dated Jan. 13 -

Yesssss! .. and Amen!

 2011/1/18 12:55Profile
davidc
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Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

Hello again staff

I have looked into the scriptures about Elijah, Ahab and Jezebel, especially to link them with John Baptist and the two witnesses of the last days.

AHAB: I can see that as a king, he was more wicked than his predecessors, but I don't think he can be classed as a type of antichrist. After hearing Elijah's words, especially after the Naboth episode, he believed God and repented in sackcloth and ashes. This would in no way typify the antichrist.

JEZEBEL: She was in some ways worse than her husband, but under the law, the husband is responsible for the actions of his wife. She was certainly wicked and indulged in false religions, but again, I would not call her a "type of false religion" (I assume you mean relating to the second beast of Rev 13).

ELIJAH: The Lord called him in a time when Israel was in serious disobedience to God, to speak His word, and he moved in great power and signs. I was especially interested to read in 1 Kings 17, how he was sent for 3.5 years to a gentile widow woman and her son. If we see the fulfillment of Elijahs ministry in the first half of the tribulation, ( forgive my calling the whole week the tribulation and the second half the great tribulation), I believe the two winesses ministry will be to the woman (Israel) and her son (the remnant in Israel who belive in Christ at that time).

I do not see Elijah's ministry in any way as an "overlapping one". If so with whom?. He ministered in the reign of Ahab and the kings that followed him; there was no change of dispensation during his monistry, which would indicate an overlap.

JOHN BAPTIST; The angel announcing his birth said: "he shall go before him(Christ) in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; Luke 1:17 (KJV). This was the "Elijah to come" ministry prophesied in Malachi: "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers" Mal 4:5-6 (KJV). But when asked by the preists and levites from Jerusalem: "Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not" John 1:21 (KJV). He confessed to being just a voice. His ministry did overlap the Lord's, but only for one or possibly two years; not 3.5 years.

TWO WITNESSES: In Rev ch 11, these are given power to prophesy for 3.5 years, the first half of Daniel's 70 th week. Their location is Jerusalem or the surrounding area, although Jerusalem is surrounded by the Gentile armies at this time, only the inner temple is left untouched. Their prophesying is a witness to Jerusalem. If the type of Elijah and the widow is taken as fulfilled here, Jerusalem is the widow, and her son the remnant of Jews who believe at this post church age. They are put to death by the beast, and all see them rise and ascend to heaven. An earhtquake kills a tenth of the city, but the remnant fear and give glory to the God of Israel. All speaks of Israel and Jerusalem here, not a church revival. The Elijah ministry, "to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children and the hearts of the children to the fathers", can not in any way be seen as a picture of new birth or christian revival; rather it is jewish terminology and a promise to the remnant of Israel.
After this, in chapter 12, the woman is seen clearly as Israel: "a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:" Rev 12:1 (KJV). See Joseph's dream Gen 37 v 9.Her son is caught up to heaven, Satan is cast down to earth, and the beast enters and defiles the temple.


Sorry this is so long, but as I can see no teaching that Elijah had an overlapping ministry, I must continue to believe that his fulfilled ministry under the two witnesses is for Israel and Jerusalem and not the church. The true church, as I have said before is caught up to be with Christ before this last of Daniel's 70 weeks.

Maranatha


David


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david

 2011/1/19 19:53Profile
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 Re:

Hi David,you make many points here some are easier to respond to than others.It will take me a little time,bear with me and I will get back to you,thanks staff

 2011/1/20 18:33Profile
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 Re: coincidence or pattern?

Hi David,I think I have covered most of the points except Elijah and Gentile woman.But he was sent to both her and her son not just her son.

JOHN THE BAPTIST:
This is what Jesus said of John

Matthew 17.10 to 17.13

And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Jesus confirms that John the Baptist had fulfilled the duties of Elijah in the Spirit of Elijah.Interestingly this passage says that Elijah had come but he is coming again to restore all things.This was spoken after Johns death.Also John did overlap the dispensations from law to grace which is what his name means grace.

ELIJAH:
We miss out on something very important in Kings because of the chapter division between 16 and 17.Elijah wasnt sent because of serious diobendence of Isreal but because of serious disobedience of Ahab.The reason Elijah is sent is explained at the end of chapter 16.Elijah is sent because he married Jezebel and worshipped baal.
Again the 1260 day judgement in Revelations is instigated by God not the antichrist.God responded to Ahab once he did that none of the other Kings had dared to do.
Also their is no dispensation change between Elijah and Elisha but elijah is the last of one type of prophet and the first type of another.Thats the transition.John was the last old testement prophet and the first preacher of the Gospel and the two witnesses are a transition from grace back to law as it relates to Judgement.

JEZEBEL:
Strongs con:The name means Jezebel = "Baal exalts" or "Baal is husband to" or "unchaste
Eastmans Dictionary:Her name afterwards came to be used as the synonym for a wicked woman (Rev 2:20).

Jezebel means married to baal and all wicked women in the bible in some way tell us something about the false religous system at the end time.I read somewhere that baal has some link to antichrist.
AHAB
Ahab is a political power married to Jezebel similar to the woman riding the beast.When Abraham offered his son to be sacrificed it is commonly recognised has God sacrificing his son.However not every other thing Abraham did was a type;so just because Ahab wore sack cloth doesnt mean he wasnt a type of the antichrist.So not every thing about Abraham typfies God and not every thing about David typfies Christ and not every thing about Saul Herod or Ahab typfies the anti christ.Using the search engine on this web I see that many christians view Ahab and Jezebel are synonomous with Anti Christ and Jezebel.

Pattern or coincidence?

ELIJAH-POLITICAL POWER AHAB-EVIL WOMEN JEZEBEL WITH A FALSE RELIGOUS SYSTEM 45O PROPHETS OF BAAL-42 MONTH JUDGEMENT and a Rapture

JOHN THE BAPTIST-AN EVIL POLITICAL POWER HEROD-A FALSE RELIGOUS SYSTEM -JESUS MINISTRY OF 3.5 YRS and a rapture

TWO WITNNESSES-AN EVIL POLITICAL POWER ANTICHRIST-A FALSE RELIGOUS SYSTEM-42 MONTH JUDGEMENT and a rapture

3.5 yrs,1260 days,time times and half a time and 42 month are only linked to ministry of elijah.
The Good news for me is that through the Ministry of the Two witnesses God will bring outpouring and Judgement.We will have of course outpourings in the mean time but not on that scale.Elijah will make it Rain again!Amen


 2011/1/20 20:59Profile
davidc
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Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

Hello Staff

Thank you for your interesting and reasoned reply. The trouble is that the result of this doctrine is that you finish your message with:

"The Good news for me is that through the Ministry of the Two witnesses God will bring outpouring and Judgement.We will have of course outpourings in the mean time but not on that scale.Elijah will make it Rain again!Amen"

So your expectation and your hope is fixed on the arrival in this world of the two witnesses, their preaching and a subsequent great revival. Such a revival does not appear anywhere in Revelation 11 during or after their ministry. Can you show me where you read of this revival?

Also by having in your heart an expectation and hope of such a prophesied future event, it is no wonder that your eyes are being dimmed to the imminence of Christ's return. He alone is our true treasure. His return at any time (today) should be our only hope. We must all as individual christians (myself included) beware of any teaching which turns our hearts away from Him and Him alone.

David


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david

 2011/1/21 18:41Profile
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 Re:

Hi David,No my hope is in the lord alone as it was the only hope that John or Elijah had or indeed the two witnesses will say what all christians should say that its all about Jesus.
The two witnesses one of which is by almost all commentarys is seen has Elijah in some form.Elijahs ministry involves withholding and giving rain on Gods behalf.The rain falling is a type of outpouring.The rain would not come unless everything was correct and in order.The rain withheld is a type of Judgement.
All Isreal went out to see Elijah on Mt Carmel and All Judea went out to see John(with the mantle of Elijah) in the Wilderness.In the future all the world will hear the two witness.We know this because they gave each other presents at their death.As with any preaching of the gospel some people will listen and some wont but these two will have power to cause Judgements as they preach making them christians not to be messed with sort to speak.Through Elijah Isreal changed course,through John the church was born and through the Two witnesses all things will be restored,theirs the rivival.

Jesus said Elijah would come again and restore all things.
Where in your opinion does this happen and when and what does elijah restore?
I am not waiting however for that outpouring and if the meantime the Lord gives us revival amen.
As for imminence I am still studying that but am stuck on what do we need new testement prophets for.!
thanks Staff
P.s
We must not shy away from preaching whats in the bible.This teaching does not turn our hearts away from him it makes him even bigger in my eyes that he can plan out everything so brilliantly!The word says that Elijah would turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and vica versa.If Jesus said their is a future coming that good enough for me.Praise the lord

 2011/1/21 18:53Profile





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