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therick2018
Member



Joined: 2010/7/12
Posts: 65


 Re:

@ kwamenat

kwamenat
With all due respect and courtesy, would you here confess that you as a sinner against God (apart from Christ) are not deserving of an enduring, conscious and eternal punishment for your sins?

Do you state that God is of less than infinite, eternal worth and glory? For if He is of less than infinite worth than any offense against Him could have only a limited consequence. Crimes are rated in part by whom they are committed against. You sin against a anthill and it is not anything to think about. You sin against another man and the consequence is greater. You commit a crime against the President of the USA and you have the FBI coming to your door. You sin against the King of Glory and it is altogether a different matter. As some old saint has said "We have not sinned against the mayor of some small village".

When God first began His work of Grace in my life and convicted me of being a wretched sinner one of the main truths that was forever impressed upon me is that I was not only worthy of eternal punishment but indeed heading for the everlasting fires of His good wrath. Yes I say good because He is good and I was evil hence His wrath. And I by the Holy Spirits illumination knew this to be true for. I actually knew that I soo deserved an eternall dwelling place in Hell that I didn't understand quite at first how God could be just in saving me from it. But praise be to God for Jesus Christ in and through whom God can justify the wicked who repent and believe.


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Rick

 2011/1/17 20:39Profile
kwamenat
Member



Joined: 2011/1/8
Posts: 58


 Re:

Lysa,

I am just encouraging diligent Bible studies. Some of us simply believe the teachings of men without searching the scriptures. Believe it or not, i had to give up somethings i believed as well when i was provided with scriptures that clearly disproved what i believed..And these where things i had believed for a while. But you know sometimes as people, we can go as far as shutting our minds from hearing or learning anything else from what think is true. I respect everyone who has arrived at a believe as a result of diligent Bible studies and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Those who simply believe the "teachings of man" and do not spend time in the word..i will tell you to start getting in the word. May the Lord help us all to arrive at the truth. Also, if you think i am up to something..all i can say is that you are entitled to your own opinions. take care

PS: I test every doctrine regardless of the denomination, even my own. Too many false teachers..can't take a risk. I must study the word on my own.

therick,

Thanks for sharing what you think but lets use scripture.

 2011/1/17 23:09Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi kwamenat...

Believe it or not, some of us were atheists before we came to believe. When I came to Christ, I didn't believe ANYTHING that I had ever been taught -- because I just never put much trust in the ideas of men. I wasn't sure that there was a Heaven or Hell. There were plenty of things that I questioned. In fact, I had even heard people who belonged to particular sects (like the Seventh Day Adventists) who taught that there is no eternal punishment outside of some notion about a final "annihilation."

Ultimately through much prayer and study, I have NEVER seen anything in Scripture to ever make me think that there is no everlasting punishment. When I read through your argument, I see nothing that makes me think that your opinion is true. The vast weight of New Testament teaching expresses the everlasting extent of the punishment that was originally prepared for the devil and his angels.

It is fine for you to share what you think from your particular select group of Scriptures. However, it just doesn't cause me to embrace your particular views when the Scriptures appear quite clear to most of us on this subject.


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Christopher

 2011/1/17 23:43Profile
kwamenat
Member



Joined: 2011/1/8
Posts: 58


 Re:

Chris,

I respect your response because you said you have diligently searched the scriptures and have arrived at what you believe. Even though one of us is right we have both studied and have scriptures to back up what we believe..take care bro

PS: to tell you the truth, this topic is not even discuss much amongst Seventh-day Adventist. I just started studying in depth on the issue not long ago.

 2011/1/17 23:59Profile
UntoBabes
Member



Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1035
Oregon

 Re:

Another thing sects do is to take words out of context. For example: they would say: If this word has a certain meaning in this verse, then it must have the same meaning in this other verse, thus defying all logic and reasoning.

they forget that the Bible contains hyperbole, figurative speach,...

But the bible does not work that way.
For example take the verse in Isaiah 65:2
2I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;

and 1 kings 19:8
8And he arose, and did eat and drink, and went in the strength of that meat forty days and forty nights unto Horeb the mount of God.

They would say that the word " day " in Isiah must have the meaning " Day light or about 14-16 hours " because that is the meaning of the word in 1 kings.

unfortunatly, that is what kwamenat did with the word" perishing". He said : ' since the word in Ps 37:20 means to die, then it must mean the same in the after life thus giving the word the meaning of annihilation.

In Ps 37 the author is talking about the fact that the wicked with perish no matter how much he may seem to prosper and grow.

20But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

35I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.

36Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.

The Psalm is simply stating the fact that the wicked will one day go to the grave and not not be seen any more. The Psalm says nothing of judgment after death because the latter involves the soul which will never perish.

Sad to say, with such falty arguments people have done much harm to the Scriptures just because they decided to forsake simple reasoning.



kwamenat, all the verses you mantioned have problems with them and will be willing to discuss them with you later.


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Fifi

 2011/1/18 0:26Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi kwamenat...

Quote:

I respect your response because you said you have diligently searched the scriptures and have arrived at what you believe. Even though one of us is right we have both studied and have scriptures to back up what we believe..take care bro



To be just a bit more clear: I didn't study this issue to particularly arrive to an opinion one way or the other. When I met the Lord, I prayerfully and eagerly dove into the Word of God with the greatest of sincerity. I had passed from being an atheist, so I didn't have words from any particular or sectarian pastor, teacher or even parents to influence my views on such things.

Consequently, I never saw ANYTHING in the Word of God that would have made me assume that "everlasting punishment" (Matthew 25:46) was akin to complete and utter annihilation. It seems to me that it takes quite a bit of selective "reading between the lines" and "connecting dots" for anyone to even remotely suggest such a thing -- because the Scriptures seem quite clear of this.

Quote:

PS: to tell you the truth, this topic is not even discuss much amongst Seventh-day Adventist. I just started studying in depth on the issue not long ago.



Interesting, because "conditional immortality" seems quite "fundamental" for most of the Seventh Day Adventists that I have met. Then again, there are quite a few peculiar Seventh Day Adventist doctrines that I disagree with...and the SDAs that I have spoken with actually felt that they were the only "remnant" who would make it to eternity.

Now, you said that you weren't influenced by the "teaching of man" in your study of this particular issue. Do you mind telling me if you had EVER spoken with a Seventh Day Adventist adherent or listened to a Seventh Day Adventist teaching (i.e. "teaching of man") about this topic BEFORE you arrived to your own particular interpretation?


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Christopher

 2011/1/18 1:23Profile
kwamenat
Member



Joined: 2011/1/8
Posts: 58


 Re:

Quote:
The Psalm is simply stating the fact that the wicked will one day go to the grave and not not be seen any more. The Psalm says nothing of judgment after death because the latter involves the soul which will never perish



I agree with you but how do you explain the part in Psalms 37 that states that into SMOKE shall they consume AWAY or you just going to ignore that?

Also, you states it is the soul which will never perish but the wicked will one day go to the grave and not be seen any more...I am puzzled? Can you elaborate..

 2011/1/18 1:28Profile
kwamenat
Member



Joined: 2011/1/8
Posts: 58


 Re:

Chris,

When I stated that the discussion is not much discussed amongst Seventh-day Adventist, I was referring to my own personal experience. I haven't heard much discussion about this issue at the African Seventh-day Adventist Church I attend. Perhaps maybe its just this particular church but it wasn't talked about much. As a matter fact I don't think many of them can give scriptures for where the church stand on this issue which is sad. But then again most christians can't explain with scripture many of the things their church teaches. That is why I have started to test everything. I cannot simply say i believe everything a church believes, I am responsible as a Christian to study the word diligently and test all doctrine.

Though I am an adventist I listen to the preachings of lots of non-adventist preachers like Eric Ludy, K.P Yohannan, Piper, Ravenhill (one of the most godly man i know)

Not long ago i was talking to one of my closest friend who is also an adventist and for some reason we ended up talking about the issue concerning eternal torment for the wicked because i think someone who was studying with brought it up. Personally, I had not studied much into it even though i remember some texts that talks about lake of fire and unquenchable fire, etc. Before I went into the word i decided to see the various view on the issue. i googled something like eternal hell fire and read through the links that came up and it just happened that one of the links was by amazing facts which is an organization under S.D.A. But i did not listen to a sermon or speak to someone about it. I just read the link i saw but i read lots of other stuff online and watched youtube videos about the issue because i didn't want to be bias.

This was around the same time i posted the question about hell fire to see if i can gather more info but it was not long that the spirit revealed to me that this teaching cannot be true because God is love and will never allow this. He cannot stand sin and has given everyone the chance to turn away fro sin and be saved. And just because he has given all a chance to be save by giving up His only begotten Son,Jesus, does not mean that eternal tormenting is o.k now. Regardless of the sins committed and the amount of mercy God gives, eternal torment is contrary to the loving God I know. Then it became evident to me that there are more scriptures that disprove tormenting than there are that supports it.

After much studies i am becoming confident everyday that there is no such thing as an eternal torment. Now you know my background and where i am coming from. Also when i looked at the statement of faith for this website it didn't mention anything about hell fire. Plus it said it is an intra-denominational ministry with 100"s different denominational so i didn't see a problem with posting some questions to see other christian views on some issues. That is why initially i felt surprised that i was been attacked because of my denomination cause someone asked if i am trying to pass on adventist doctrines to which i replied that it is a shame that because of my denomination i cannot be part of a christian forum. Anyways now you know more about where i am coming from.

Also I found it real hard to believe the side that Ravenhill takes cause I respect him so much. That has challenged me to search even more but I just can't gather enough text to fully back this thing up. Clearly, there are more texts against the issue than for it. Also, the Spirit is telling me that God will not do something like this. For Christ said the Spirit will lead us to all truth. That is why i said i cannot blame you if you have come to a conclusion based on authentic searching and prayers for the truth concerning this issue because ultimately we have to listen to the Spirit.

I am not saying the teaching of man is wrong but we must test everything by diligent studying of the Word before we come to a conclusion.

Brother in Christ,
Nate

 2011/1/18 3:57Profile
mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1862
Kansas

 Re:

Brother Nate I appreciated your hunger for the truth, I also appreciate your heart for testing the Spirits and reading the Word.

You said "Regardless of the sins committed and the amount of mercy God gives, eternal torment is contrary to the loving God I know."

Love is just one of the many attributes of God, He has others that are Infinite in nature according to His Good Will. I understand you are an adventist and from my experience with people that hold a denominational stance they tend to read the scriptures with that kind of lens as they read scriptures, this can lead to many errors such as ignoring keys scriptures to back up your denominational stance. I was once the same way but only until I started reading scripture for what they were and ignoring what I was commonly taught as absolute truth did I ever actually learn anything from my readings.

One of the Attributes of God is Holiness God is perfectly and utterly Holy and with out Sin or Blemish, We find in Revelations the Angels before Him Cry HE IS HOLY HOLY HOLY. Noticed they are saying God is Love love love or mercy, mercy, mercy. This is to point out that God's main attribute is infact His Holiness.

God is also Just meaning when you break His Law, He will has to punish you for this law you have broken. God being eternal when sinned against is an Eternal offense and deserving of Eternal Punishment. God infacts delights in His Justice taking delight in crushing His Only Begotten as described in Isaiah 53:10 "But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring,He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand."

Through Christ Alone are we offered Mercy and Love IF we repent (turn to God) and Believe in the Christ as our LORD and SAVIOUR. That is the importance of Christ His sacrifice was Eternal FOR an Eternal Wrath and Punishment.

God showed His love through His Son so we could escape the wrath to come, but God is also Infinitely Holy and Just all in the same and will act accordinly. God's wrath will be poured out for an eternity on those that do not repent and trust in Christ and it will be fully Justified and Correct for Him to do so for all Eternity.

God Bless,
Matthew


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Matthew Guldner

 2011/1/18 4:42Profile
Lesserlight
Member



Joined: 2010/9/19
Posts: 134


 Re:

God does not change and within His Laws there was never any "endless torture" as a form of punishment for any trespass against man or God. For that matter torture without end was never the dominating view taught in the church until somewhere around 400 AD that later was fully implemented with the Roman church. Naturally with the Protestant churches being nothing more than a trickle down result of the RC church, they hold dear some of the main doctrines of which endless to torture is one of.

However to teach that there are people burning in some sort of literal hell who never heard of the name of Jesus is about as morbid and immoral as it gets and God is neither of those.

To the evangelical church fire from God on them is a good purifying fire while on everyone else it is for punishment....... LOL ......how convenient for the church and no wonder that much of the world holds the church in contempt of all that is fair and good.

For sure the church does not teach that David spent time in hell as well as acknowledge that both heaven and hell contained the presence of God. However the scriptures teach otherwise.

2 Samuel 22:6
The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;

Psalm 116:3
The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.

Psalm 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

I am not going to get into a big thing on translations of words from the original text because there are plenty of books on the subject that show how the word for eternal "aiōnios" originally meant the "fullness of an age' that when you consider along with the words of Jesus shed light that the punishment fits the crime and that the sentence will be fulfilled to the letter. The passage below shows how God's Law for punishment works in the next life just as it did 1500 years earlier in the law given to Moses.

Here we have someone coming to worship but has sinned against another person........ Jesus tell them to first go make amends and then come back to worship him or pay the price.

Matt 5: 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

On the other hand the Law decreed that even when there could not ever be a satisfactory payment for one's trespass against another person, all "trespassers" were set free every Jubilee. (other than death sentences that were already carried out)

It is not the case that "hell" does not exist but what "hell" is and what it's real purpose is that eludes those who make claims to know about the things of God when the truth is they still have a lot to learn.

Jesus makes it very clear that we are to live by EVERY WORD THAT COMES FROM GOD AND NOT JUST "IN CONTEXT"

Unfortunately because Christians as a whole limit their knowledge strictly to "keeping in context only" thus disobeying the commandments of Jesus to always live by every word that comes from God, most of the truth of the scriptures eludes them. One must lean how to "rightly divide the word" by comparing spirit with spirit (word with the word) , line upon line and precept upon precept if they hope to ever move beyond being a mere babe in Christ and become a "father" as John called the early elders that were taught by the Apostles.

On the other hand many Universalist are just as guilty as the evangelical church for their lack of knowledge of eternal judgment that is one of the required foundational doctrines that Christians need to learn. I have heard many Universalist teach that Hitler went straight to heaven and I find that doctrine just as repulsive as the evangelical doctrine of people who never heard of Jesus burning in hell

No wonder God speaks hopefully of the day of when mankind will lean how to use His Word as He intended it to be used so that knowledge of the truth will increased. For that purpose alone there is a thread here titled "The Law as our Schoolteacher" that is a good start on how a person can learn the truth straight from God and once and forever cleanse the mind of all the teachings of man that have ruled the church ever since the lat Apostle was "taken out of the way"

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=36904&forum=36&0

Blessings

Doug

Edit...... corrected where the above link is found as well as added the link



 2011/1/18 6:03Profile





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