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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Is there really Eternal Hell Fire

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ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4488


 Re:

Hi kwamenat...

I don't know who you are directing your comments toward, but I don't think that anyone has done this.

No one is accusing you of having preconceived ideas. Rather, I simply asked if your questions were legitimate...or if you were using these questions as a means to spread sectarian Adventist views. In the past, we have had some Adventists come here and pretty much dismiss the faith of everyone else because they didn't hold the same views as they did.

When you use rhetoric like "read more in the Word and see what God's wants you to do on the Lord's day....the Holy spirit will lead you IF YOU ARE SINCERELY SEARCHING," then the connotation is that those who are "sincere" will arrive to the same conclusion that you have.

Yet, in both of these threads that you started, you began with a question about why believers [here] have arrived to specific conclusions about the Sabbath and Hell. You are certainly entitled to an opinion that you can share...but you must understand that it will be largely rejected by most believers who have SINCERELY sought the Lord via His Word in prayer.

Now, I am not questioning your sincerity...and I hope that it didn't come across that way. I just have been a bit confused regarding whether you wanted to know why others feel the way they do -- or if your question was just "bait" for a debate. Since you have obviously researched this issue, I would imagine that you already know why many believers feel the way that they do. Thus, your initial open-ended questions puzzled me.

Still, you are welcome to come and discuss these issues in a manner that is in accordance with the Word of God (in decency and in order) and within the scope of this website's goals. No one is singling you out or "rejecting you" -- although many of us might reject a particular view or claim.

It is good to "test everything" (I Thessalonians 5:21). This "Berean" attitude should be a hallmark of all believers...but is sadly missing in much of today's church. People are too easily persuaded by pastors, teachers, TV and radio personalities and even family members. Our guiding light should always be prayerful study of God's Word. This is our guiding light (so to speak) by which we can judge all of the teachings of man (whether in the church, university, etc...).

Anyway, welcome to the forums. As someone else mentioned, these things have been discussed at length previously. There is a good search feature located at the top of the home page. In addition, let me encourage you to take advantage of the many wonderful audio and video resources available here. The SERMON RECOMMENDATION list at the right of the home page is a great list of messages that have impacted many thousands of people.

Here is a great message that has greatly impacted many:

TEN SHEKELS AND A SHIRT by Paris Reidhead
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=282


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Christopher

 2011/1/13 1:16Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: Is there really Eternal Hell Fire

UntoBabes, you quoted me saying, "eternal life is not used in the Scriptures primarily as a quantitative expression of life, but as a qualitative expression."

To which you responded, "If the word 'eternal' does not suggest quantity, I don't know what would."

That is why I used the descriptive "primarily." Of course it suggests a duration. But the matter is that those who are cast into the "lake of fire" will also live there for eternity, as well. So what makes the difference between "eternal life" in heaven and, if we make speak thus, "eternal life" in hell? Obviously this is primarily a qualitative distinction.

Kwamenat, you asked me what I meant by a "profound description."

I meant just what it sounds like. Though, if it helps, you might replace the expression with "allegorical description." That is to say, the usage of "hell-fire" is an earthly description of a heavenly mystery – just like the OT earthly temple was representative of the Temple in Heaven. So "fire" is representative of the Holy Presence of God that shall be the cause of the sinner's torment in the life to come.

Consider, for example, another passage:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
[...] when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints [...]

Note: the phrase "from the presence of the Lord" does not mean "away from His presence" but, literally, "coming from [i.e., radiating from] the face of the Lord."


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Jordan

 2011/1/13 3:47Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Funny. I had similar discussion with a popular music artist on FB yesterday about eternal torment. He doesn't believe that anyone will go to eternal torment but that they will be in Hell only for the 1000 year riegn of Christ. After that, they will get out and ALL will be saved.

After I gently corrected him he called me a weak brother for believing in Hell and blocked me.

Praise the Lord that He knows what is good!


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Christiaan

 2011/1/13 10:30Profile
UntoBabes
Member



Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1031
Oregon

 Re:

Quote:
UntoBabes, you quoted me saying, "eternal life is not used in the Scriptures primarily as a quantitative expression of life, but as a qualitative expression.To which you responded, "If the word 'eternal' does not suggest quantity, I don't know what would.That is why I used the descriptive "primarily." Of course it suggests a duration. But the matter is that those who are cast into the "lake of fire" will also live there for eternity, as well. So what makes the difference between "eternal life" in heaven and, if we make speak thus, "eternal life" in hell? Obviously this is primarily a qualitative distinction.


Thank you for clatifying that.


_________________
Fifi

 2011/1/13 11:22Profile
kwamenat
Member



Joined: 2011/1/8
Posts: 58


 Re:

O.k, this is the way i always pictured it.

Here is a simple chronological order of what happens to us after the second come of Our Lord:

1. Those who are saved (Those who are alive and the dead in Christ will rise) will be taken up to heaven for a 1000 years with God. Those who are alive and not saved will die and the dead who are not in Christ will continue to remain until the 1000 years are over. (Revelation 20:4-6)

This is the time that Satan is bound (Rev 20:2)

2. After the 1000 years as shown in Revelation 21, Then God will set up His Holy City where the saved will be with him forever.

It is after the 1000 years that this happens...Revelation 21:8- But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

This is the second death. So apparently the death who were not saved resurrected after the 1000 years (Rev 20: 7-10) and tried to surround God's people and that is when they were devoured with Fire from God and cast into the lake of fire and brimstone.

In Jude 1:7, the city of Sodom is described as being destroyed by “eternal fire.” Is Sodom burning today? No. Therefore the “eternal fire” has gone out. The phrase, “eternal fire,” means it was a fire from God with eternal consequences. It was “unquenchable” by man (see Matthew 3:12; Jeremiah 17:27; Isaiah 66:24). The destruction of Sodom was also an “example” of what will happen to the wicked at the end. According to the Bible, God’s eternal fire turned Sodom into “ashes” (2 Peter 2:6) “in a moment.” Lamentations 4:6. This is similar to what will happen to all the lost at the end of the 1000 years when they are cast into the lake of fire, “which is the second death.” Revelation 20:14.

2 Peter 2:6 “And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ASHES condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly.”

They will have to burn to ashes only cause in Revelation 21 God is going to establish his Everlasting kingdom and the former things will pass away (V.4) How can the former things passed away if there are still people burning perpetually?

 2011/1/13 12:53Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: Is there really Eternal Hell Fire

No problem, UntoBabes.

Kwamenat, I am not going to get into a debate about Dispensationalism (e.g., whether or not there is a literal Millennial Kingdom). But it is clear that you agree "eternal" means everlasting.

Quote:
In Jude 1:7, the city of Sodom is described as being destroyed by “eternal fire.” Is Sodom burning today? No. Therefore the “eternal fire” has gone out. The phrase, “eternal fire,” means it was a fire from God with eternal consequences. It was “unquenchable” by man (see Matthew 3:12; Jeremiah 17:27; Isaiah 66:24). The destruction of Sodom was also an “example” of what will happen to the wicked at the end. According to the Bible, God’s eternal fire turned Sodom into “ashes” (2 Peter 2:6) “in a moment.” Lamentations 4:6. This is similar to what will happen to all the lost at the end of the 1000 years when they are cast into the lake of fire, “which is the second death.” Revelation 20:14.



While I am impressed by your grasp of "eternal fire" meaning it "was a fire from God with eternal consequences"; I am surprised that you still switched this with a merely temporal matter. That is, you recognize that the condemned of Sodom still burn to this day, but in your argument you switched this to mean the burning of the land of Sodom, which has long since been extinguished.

You also asked, "How can the former things [have] passed away if there are still people burning perpetually?"

That depends on how one interprets the "former things." For example, how can the former things have passed away if God is still God? The "former things" cannot mean whatever we wish it to mean nor is it meant to mean those "people burning perpetually." Rather it is indicative of the previous world system during the time of God's patience. Namely, this present evil age is the "former things."

Believe me, Kwamenat, when I say I am sympathetic to the doctrine of Annihilationism. If the Scriptures were not excessively descriptive of the final judgment being an everlasting conscious suffering for the damned then I would have defaulted to Annihilationism.

So you are correct to say "This is similar to what will happen to all the lost at the end of the 1000 years when they are cast into the lake of fire, “which is the second death.” Revelation 20:14." But it is still not the SAME thing that will happen at the end.


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Jordan

 2011/1/13 19:49Profile
kwamenat
Member



Joined: 2011/1/8
Posts: 58


 Re:

Bro,

The consequence is eternal. They will be burned to ashes. Are you saying they will literally be standing in the lake of fire forever.If so, you are wrong! The Bible does not teach that.

"if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly" (2 Peter 2:6)

Jude 7- "just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire". (ARE THE PEOPLE IN SODOM BURNING RIGHT NOW....NO!)

In Jeremiah 17:27, Yahweh said he would kindle an unquenchable fire in Jerusalem. This was fulfilled in 2 Chronicles 36:19-21. Is Jerusalem still burning?

Romans 6:23 - the wages of sin is death, the gift of God is eternal life. (It does not say eternal death)

While researching i also came across that some people actually use Luke 16 for everlasting fire/punishment. The story about Lazarus in Luke 16 is baseless regarding everlasting punishment. Jesus was merely using a parable to explain the torment unrepentant sinners will experience before they are totally consumed by fire.

Rev 20 talks about hell been thrown into the lake of fire.. I never thought about that..I will look into that tomorrow cause that may be a whole new study. Anyways..back to the my main point - People that are not saved will be burned to ashes and not FOREVER!

So is Peter wrong? If not what does he mean by saying that what happened to Sodom is an example to what will happen to the ungodly?

 2011/1/14 1:23Profile
mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re:

"The consequence is eternal. They will be burned to ashes. Are you saying they will literally be standing in the lake of fire forever.If so, you are wrong! The Bible does not teach that."

I ask how can a consequence be eternal if I am not around to live out the consequence? Doesn't seem quite logical to say there are eternal consequences but we don't have to live them out because we simply burn to ashes.

"And they will go away into eternal punishment!" (Matthew 25:46)

Can it really be an eternal punishment if they find relief in death?

Also consider the story of in Luke 16:19-31 The rich man goes to hell and then begs Abraham to send Lazarus to cool his tongue with the tips of his finger with some water and says "FOR I AM IN AGONY IN THIS FLAME"

Please tell me if Jesus would use a story and give us a miss representation of what hell is going to be like? Did Jesus exaggerate this just to tell a good story or was He giving us a warning so that we may repent?

May I also ask how is there going to be weeping and gnashing of teeth if everyone is a pile of ashes?

Matthew 13:42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Is Jesus just making these statements again because he wanted to be a good story teller and so streched the truth for the sake of His story?

I am all for openmindedness but it seems Jesus was pretty clear cut on this one. I can kind of see where you are coming from but for me it doesn't line up with what Jesus commonly preached and taught and so its a conclusion I would have to disagree with in a very logical sense of the argument.


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Matthew Guldner

 2011/1/14 1:54Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: Is there really Eternal Hell Fire

Quote:
The consequence is eternal. They will be burned to ashes. Are you saying they will literally be standing in the lake of fire forever.If so, you are wrong! The Bible does not teach that.
[...]
Rev 20 talks about hell been thrown into the lake of fire.. I never thought about that..I will look into that tomorrow cause that may be a whole new study.


Am I wrong? Does the Bible really not teach that? Perhaps you will surprise yourself when you discover other things the Bible says which you have not yet thought about.

Here is a simple challenge: define "everlasting suffering."


---

Mguldner, your argument is mistaken.

Quote:
I ask how can a consequence be eternal if I am not around to live out the consequence? Doesn't seem quite logical to say there are eternal consequences but we don't have to live them out because we simply burn to ashes.


Annihilationism is an eternal punishment. It does not require conscious torment to be eternal. It would be similar to turning off a light switch and never ever (for eternity) turning it back on. The light being off then is an eternal consequence. The problem is whether Annihilationism is what the Bible describes Hell to be.


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Jordan

 2011/1/14 2:01Profile
mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re:

Mguldner, your argument is mistaken.

"Annihilationism is an eternal punishment. It does not require conscious torment to be eternal. It would be similar to turning off a light switch and never ever (for eternity) turning it back on. The light being off then is an eternal consequence. The problem is whether Annihilationism is what the Bible describes Hell to be."


*edited in after rereading your post I may have misunderstood you so please humor me :)*

Thanks for the response, I find your view of this quite interesting, can you experience eternal punishment with "weeping and gnashing of teeth" and not be conscious in this process? Just a question am interested in your response, I will admit I haven't done much research or incredibly deep study of hell but what I have read in the word and have formulated over time. So I am definitely not the all incompassing knowledge of hell :) I really hope I don't have to go there to know for sure though :)


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Matthew Guldner

 2011/1/14 2:16Profile





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