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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Saint or sinner

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DirkW
Member



Joined: 2007/11/16
Posts: 88
Netherlands

 Re:

Aren't we To die daily in our flesh? The old man died says romans and galatians.

But back to my question because soms help with answers and some go way another way. Is Paul saying he IS à sinner and à saint as his identity or is He more talking about THE past and now Looking at himself as saint and how do we for ourselves need to See this? How Does God sees us and how should we See ourselves? And what would be THE consequenses of we See ourselves as saint And sinner instead of saint sometimes sinning?

God bless


_________________
Dirk

 2011/1/6 11:23Profile
Lesserlight
Member



Joined: 2010/9/19
Posts: 134


 Re:

Quote:
How Does God sees us and how should we See ourselves? And what would be THE consequenses of we See ourselves as saint And sinner instead of saint sometimes sinning?



Gods sees you as you are and if you know the scriptures and are honest with yourself you see yourself the same way that He sees you.

For an example of a saint we have the first century church that were saints because of Christ in them that was given evidence through the signs and wonders that followed them.

We are all sinners saved by Grace and if we become saints it is because of His work and not ours............. as far as you are concerned you already know if you are doing the works of a saint or a sinner.

Blessings

Doug

 2011/1/6 11:57Profile
DirkW
Member



Joined: 2007/11/16
Posts: 88
Netherlands

 Re:

Are we as à child of God from biblical perspective saints and Sinner or saint who sometimes sins, what is our identity as believer...that's what I mean.

And Does Paul mean in 1 timothy He IS à sinner as identity nOW or WAS à sinner because of all he did.


_________________
Dirk

 2011/1/6 13:26Profile
UntoBabes
Member



Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1031
Oregon

 Re:

Quote:
Ans how then do we interpretate 1 Tim. 1:15 what Paul says about himself? Is he calling himself sinner / saint or...?




Dirk,
To answer your question one have to look no furthur than the text itself. Just read the verse within the context. You will see that when Paul is refering to himself as the cheif, or the first( meaning the highesy ranking sinner), he is refering to his past sins.


12And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.


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Fifi

 2011/1/6 13:30Profile
Lesserlight
Member



Joined: 2010/9/19
Posts: 134


 Re:

Sinners that defeat sin are "overcomers" that still have sin in them but because they walk by faith and not by sight they have overcome the wicked one and do not sin anymore

John makes reference to them in 1Jn 2:13-15

Blessings

Doug

 2011/1/6 13:52Profile
UntoBabes
Member



Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1031
Oregon

 Re:

Quote:
still have sin in them



If you mean by sin the flesh, then Yes.

Although the Bible says the if someone in Christ the flesh is dead. It does not mean dead without the ability to rise. The flesh can rise any time when we fail to be in Christ or fail to continue to abide in Christ.

The word dead in Biblical use when it refers to spiritual deadness is diferent from physical deadness. While some one who is physically dead can not make himself rise from the dead. On the other hand, some one who is spiritually dead can rise from the dead by faith.

Eph 5:14
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Rev 3:1,2
1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.


_________________
Fifi

 2011/1/6 14:10Profile









 Re: Saint or sinner


Dear brother Doug (LesserLight)

Quote:
you are alive to God through His Son that said "pick up your cross and follow me" meaning that you (we) are to die daily. However if our old man was already destroyed dying daily would not be required of us.

This is a thinking error.

The following is an extract from Rom 5:12

'as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men,'

The 'old man' who was crucified with Christ, was the SPIRITUAL man who was dead in trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ,..').

When 'our old man was crucified with Christ', captivity was taken captive. Death was abolished. (2 Tim 1:8 '... but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:)

This 'quickened ... together with Christ' is what Paul discusses in Romans 6. He is talking about accepting total death in principle, and yet without physically dying, AND accepting SPIRUTUAL resurrection life - yet without physically dying. (Eventually when we have physically died, we will experience a resurrected human body.)

My username comes straight from Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, BUT alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The taking-up of our cross daily, is the demonstration that I have reckoned myself dead to sin but alive to God though Jesus Christ our Lord.

The distinction between the eternal, and the daily, comes to light again in many places in the New Testament. Those which spring most readily to my mind, are

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

[Or, them that are being sanctified.]
[Or, them that are being glorified. See 2 Cor 3.]

and

Galatians 5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. [2 Cor 3 again.]

'The cross' for a Christian is experienced by walking in the Spirit, or, walking in the light as He is in the light. In 1 John 1:7, there is no mention of the cross, but rather of the continuous spiritual application of Christ's cleansing blood. There is no work to being dead in Christ. Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest... lest... unbelief'.

As UntoBabes said, it's only when we cease to abide in Him, we find ourselves in trouble with sin and, I would add, doubt.

 2011/1/6 14:39
Lesserlight
Member



Joined: 2010/9/19
Posts: 134


 Re:

Quote:
This is a thinking error



Is it really ....... are you saying that John is wrong and you no longer have sin because the old man is where the sin in you is?

Linn........... What does Paul really say?

Ro. 6: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin MIGHT be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Please notice my emphasis on the word "might" that reflects the possibility of the body of sin in you being destroyed but for now unfortunately it seems to be succeeding very well at fooling you

Jesus did lead captivity captive and if and when Christ is formed in you then you too will lead captivity captive....... but lets be honest here about Christ being formed in Christians because the true mind of Christ does the works of Christ that are seen through signs and wonders.

To put it bluntly without the signs and wonders that proves the presence of Christ within, what we are looking at in Christians who think that they do not have sin in them is an impostor that looks like Christ and we all know who that is.

Paul makes it very clear he was still dealing with sin that lives within him and within us after receiving the Holy Spirit

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Paul continues with this doctrine of the law of sin living in him in 2nd Cor 12 when he speaks of the thorn in his flesh that is the messenger of satan. Later John speaks of sin still in Christians in his epistle and not only that but says very clearly that anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

By definition the term "law of sin" defines a principality still living within Christians and it will be within all Christians including you until the day you die ....... for more information of how law of sin has succeeded at deceiving christians through this "name and claim it" doctrine that you are speaking of and has gotten a hold of far to many Christians, please study the parable of the unclean spirit in Matt 12 and Luke 11

Now do you still think that sin in you has been destroyed and that both Paul and John are wrong ?...... or is it possible that are they are right and you have been deceived by the deceiver?

Being as between them and you that they are the ones with signs following them and not you, my money is on them.......... Because like the other Apostles they have overcome sin and are in harmony with God that allows Him to work miracle through them.

Blessings

Doug







 2011/1/6 16:37Profile
davidc
Member



Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

Lesser Light, you say

"To put it bluntly without the signs and wonders that proves the presence of Christ within what we are looking at in Christians who think that they do not have sin in them is an impostor that looks like Christ and we all know who that is."

I believe you are walking on dangerous ground, Doug, if you believe that signs and wonders ie miracles, are the proof of the presence of Christ in a christian. Granted the early apostles did many signs and wonders, it was a very precious time, the birth of the church at pentecost, but the scripture does not indicate that we should be trying to emmulate or repeat that time.

A true christian has all the proof he needs within himself, the Holy Spirit constantly speaking in his heart, showing him the father's love and filling him day by day with all the glories of Christ. Yes, trials come, but they are as nothing.

The scriptures also warn us that in the last days there will be those who perform lying signs and wonders to deceive even the elect. Our faith does not lie in outward display of power, but in a day by day resting in Him. We live by faith, not by sight

David


_________________
david

 2011/1/6 18:26Profile









 Re: Saint or sinner



David, thanks for your comments. I was looking at the same thing from a different angle, namely, that there are many different manifestations of Christ in a believer. A new creation, the fruit of the Spirit from those who abide in Him, and the gifts of the Spirit as the Lord has divided them to the believer.

For instance, Peter says this of women: 1 Peter 3:4 But [let it be] the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, [even the ornament] of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

The 'great price' is His life given on the cross, imparted to us who believe, who do reckon ourselves dead in Him.

Quote:
Is it really ....... are you saying that John is wrong and you no longer have sin because the old man is where the sin in you is?

Doug, I'm not challenging Paul's statement. You are. I don't have anything to add to my earlier statements.
Quote:
Paul makes it very clear he was still dealing with sin that lives within him and within us after receiving the Holy Spirit

Of course. I have not suggested it is otherwise. What I offered to you is a more biblical division of the truths in Romans 5 and 6. You will see more clearly what I mean, if you read it in Young's Literal Translation for yourself.

He puts Rom 6:6 this way.

this knowing, that our old man was crucified with [him], that the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the sin;

Victory over sin BEGINS by reckoning myself dead in Christ. It may begin as a mind thing, but unless it settles in one's spirit as a matter of faith, one is stuck in the works of the flesh again.
Quote:
By definition the term "law of sin" defines a principality still living within Christians and it will be within all Christians including you until the day you die

Or, you reckon yourself dead. Can you see that?

Actually, the 'law of sin' is what drags us towards eternal death. In Christ, the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus, drags us towards eternal LIFE. (Romans 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us,..')
Quote:
this "name and claim it" doctrine that you are speaking of

I'm not speaking of this doctrine you mention.
Quote:
Now do you still think that sin in you has been destroyed and that both Paul and John are wrong ?......

I don't think Paul and John are wrong. I think though, it's possible you misunderstand them, and as a result have misunderstood me also.
Quote:
Being as between them and you that they are the ones with signs following them and not you,

Objection! How do you 'know' there are no 'signs following' my ministry? You can but be guessing, and you could consider guessing that there ARE signs following. Why not? Why take the negative option?
Quote:
in harmony with God that allows Him to work miracle through them.

Amen. But Paul states clearly that not everyone has the same gifts.

1 Cor 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

1 Cor 12:29 [Are] all apostles? [are] all prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all workers of miracles?

2 Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. 13 But we will not boast of things without [our] measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you.... 17 For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.


In case you think I'm comparing myself to Apostles, let me clarify please: I am simply hiding in Christ, where my life is hidden with Him, in God.

Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, [who is] our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. 5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth;...'


Doug, I'd like to make this my last post in this thread. I hope if others think I'm as wrong as you do, they will back you up. Thanks for the discussion.

 2011/1/6 19:09





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