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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Saint or sinner

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DirkW
Member



Joined: 2007/11/16
Posts: 88
Netherlands

 Saint or sinner

Are believers in Christ a saint and sinner or a saint who is sometimes sinning or...? What's our identity? Because the old men died, new creation is there. So it's not I but sin in me. How do you guys look at this?

Thanks God bless


_________________
Dirk

 2011/1/5 14:23Profile









 Re: Saint or sinner



Brother, this precise point is addressed by Oswald J Smith in very clear terms, in this month's featured sermon 'The Spirit Filled Life':

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=6612&commentView=itemComments

 2011/1/5 17:56
JB1968
Member



Joined: 2009/8/31
Posts: 416
Ohio USA

 Re:

I John says that whoever commits sin is of the devil. If we are saved, we are no longer a sinner. We cannot belong to God and the devil at the same time. We are now a child of God.
Any other thoughts?


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James

 2011/1/5 18:40Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3683
Ca.

 Re:

This say it pretty plain;

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and He cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

"Born of God", is being Born Again by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth forever; Jesus Christ in you the hope of Glory;

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

He is our perfection, He is now our life, the life that does not sin, the real "I" is Jesus Christ in me and He cannot sin. So, "It is no longer I who sin but sin that dwelleth in me", That is why the body of flesh (sin) must die and God give us a new body like His Son Jesus Christ.
Our Spirit is alive unto God by the Spirit of Christ in us, our soul/mind is alive unto God and being conformed to the Mind of Christ by the Holy Spirit Teacher.

Ro 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Ro 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Php 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

This is who we are to God; "It is no longer I", "but Christ who lives in me".

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; ((((((yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:))))) and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the (((faith of the Son of God,))) who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

We the Born Again are the son's of God by the Son of God that is in us. "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. This is now our lives, we are dead to sin and the old man is dead to God. We are now new creatures in Christ Jesus. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

We are the New Creation of God, Christ Jesus being the first and the head of His Body the Church, which is "His Body".

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2011/1/5 19:44Profile
DirkW
Member



Joined: 2007/11/16
Posts: 88
Netherlands

 Re:

Ans how then do we interpretate 1 Tim. 1:15 what Paul says about himself? Is he calling himself sinner / saint or...?


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Dirk

 2011/1/6 5:41Profile
Lesserlight
Member



Joined: 2010/9/19
Posts: 134


 Re:

In Romans chapter 7 Paul explains the demise of why Christians fail to overcome sin.

When a Christian is baptized in the Holy Spirit they receive the seed that is Christ however they still have within them the seed (spirit) of man that has been an unclean spirit ever since the fall of man way back in the garden.

Through the seed (spirit) that is Christ,Christians have access unto God but through the spirit (seed) of man that has the law of sin within it Satan still has access unto the Christian.

Paul describes these two principalities to be opposing laws with his mind serving the law of faith but his flesh serving the law of sin. This is where knowledge comes into play because a Christian without knowledge is no match for Satan despite the best of intentions.

There will never be a marriage between Jesus and a church that is still having to deal with sin consequently learning how to overcome sin should be priority number one for all christians.......... or accept the fact that they will not participate in the wedding.

Blessings

Doug


 2011/1/6 6:18Profile









 Re: Saint or sinner


Berry's Greek Interlinear uses 'first' instead of 'chief', as does Young's Literal, which follows here:

1 Timothy 1:15 stedfast [is] the word, and of all acceptation worthy, that Christ Jesus came to the world to save sinners--first of whom I am;


The way I read this (in the light of OJ Smith's fuller explanation), is that Paul is placing himself "top of the class" of all who recognise they come to God as 'a sinner'.

The distinction that OJ Smith makes is with regard to confession of individual sins, which, he says, is not necessary by those coming to Christ the first time, as long as they acknowledge being 'a sinner'; but once one is a Christian, each sin must be acknowledged and separately repented of, for the joy of salvation to return.

Is Paul now referring to the number of times he's had to repent since becoming a Christian? Possibly, but that may be just a matter of perception. However, if one may have to forgive 'seventy times seven', then presumably it's possible to offend (God or man) at least that many times.

How we deal with offences, both in our own hearts toward God, and toward man, differentiates us from unbelievers, or it should do.

 2011/1/6 7:03
Lesserlight
Member



Joined: 2010/9/19
Posts: 134


 Re:

Sin is not just a verb that denotes an action but is also a noun that has been handed down to all of mankind....... something that is often called to be original sin aka the sin nature in man that causes them to sin.

Just because a person "becomes a Christian" does not rid them of this "thing called sin" that lives within them that Paul called "the thorn in his flesh and the messenger of satan".

However by learning the truth of the seven foundational doctrines allows a Christian to defeat the sin that lives within us through Christ being formed in them from the seed of Christ (aka Holy Spirit) that is the free gift of salvation

It is not a matter of how many times a Christian has sinned and gone through repentance and forgiveness since coming to Christ but are you or are you not going to overcome the sin that lives in you that is keeping Christ from being formed in you?

To date the only example we have of mortal man with Christ formed in them thus overcoming the sin in them are the Apostles. When one overcomes sin they become in harmony with God that is witnessed with signs following.

The whole purpose of Jesus Christ is not for us to be forgiven of our sins but to overcome sin thus becoming one with God. When that happens a it did with the Apostle then you will see a person that God will work miracle through them the same a He did through the Apostles.

This is why knowledge is so important and is what separates the NT Apostles from Christians today

Blessings

Doug

 2011/1/6 7:50Profile









 Re: Saint or sinner


Hi Doug,

Quote:
this "thing called sin" that lives within them

So where does this leave Paul's statement that 'our old man was crucified with Christ' and we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin?

In other words, is it not the death of Christ which released the whole of mankind from the undefeatable power sin had over him (man) until the cross? (Which each individual must appropriate by faith, before any overcoming is possible with the help of the Holy Spirit?)

 2011/1/6 10:09
Lesserlight
Member



Joined: 2010/9/19
Posts: 134


 Re:

Hello to you AtG

Quote:
So where does this leave Paul's statement that 'our old man was crucified with Christ' and we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin?



Well what come to my mind first is your username........ you are alive to God through His Son that said "pick up your cross and follow me" meaning that you (we) are to die daily. However if our old man was already destroyed dying daily would not be required of us. For example........ If Paul's "old man" had already been destroyed then Paul and the others would not have to die daily.

Jesus destroying our old man is the same as Him dying for the sins of the world....... He did die for the sins of the world and His work on the Cross is finished but there is still work to be done in us........ so we pick up our cross and die daily because without a death there cannot be a resurrection and to be resurrected as Christ is the hope of Him being formed in us.

For a similar example consider how Paul said that "we have the mind of Christ" that left in context (1Cor 2:16) has led many a Christian to believe that they have the mind of Christ when they do not.

They have fallen into that trap because they are disobeying the laws on how to determine the truth. Had they obeyed those laws and lived by every word that comes from God then they would have to weigh in why did Paul tell the church to "let this mind that was in Christ Jesus be in them" if in fact they already had the mind of Christ? (Phil 2:5)

Same thing goes with the example you used because without removing that passage from its context and comparing to other words spoken in the Bible and as Paul instruct us to,(1Cor 2:13) we cannot perceive the truth as God would have us to learn it.

Blessings

Doug

 2011/1/6 11:08Profile





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