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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Thank goodness I've got notes, because you'd probably pull strips out of me.

I've got notes too, but most of them are in my head.

Quote:
And based on your photograph it seems that that life-long passion is substantially longer than my entire life existence. Not that you look 'that' old

That picture at the top of the Abraham Devotions isn't me, its Abraham!


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Ron Bailey

 2004/11/9 15:54Profile
RobertW
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Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
That picture at the top of the Abraham Devotions isn't me, its Abraham!


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/11/9 15:55Profile
ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re: Something about books and there covers

Quote:

philologos wrote:
That picture at the top of the Abraham Devotions isn't me, its Abraham!



And all along I thought you wore glasses and didn't lean on a stick. :-D


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2004/11/9 16:16Profile
ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
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 Re:

To let you know there will be other instalments to this thread:

What do they do
Are there Apostles today
What are the signs of an Apostle
What is an Apostolic team

From my timezone, sleeptight


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2004/11/9 16:20Profile
ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re: What Do They Do?

The scope of their ministry, both spiritually and geographically, is vast.

[b]Ministry:[/b] They are primarily involved in a five-fold ministry: -

[b]Foundation:[/b]

Planting-new churches-Paul was always looking for virgin territory to build new churches.
Parenting-“orphan” churches- sorting out foundations. In both these categories, Planting and Parenting, they have a gifting, foundationally, that no others can impart.

They can teach the same parts of the Bible as others but impart something others cannot
[b]They cannot add to, or take away form, the Bible.[/b]

But God lays “foundations” in our lives and churches, through their insight and teaching of the word.

[b]Revelation:[/b]
They bring visionary revelation and understanding to God’s people.They show them how to proceed as they discover “restored” truth about church life.

[b]Formation (setting in order):[/b]
Of lives
Of church life-structures, etc
Of decisions regarding government and doctrine

[b]Emancipation (liberty and freedom) keeps churches free:[/b]
From wrong emphasis
Doctrinal off-centeredness
Spiritual coldness
Incorrect practice: he is a safeguard to the churches
Legalism: Many believers still live in condemnation. He brings grace to set us free.

Terry Virgo: “Apostolic doctrine handled with apostolic authority and insight is desperately needed.

[b]Edification:[/b]
He can “supply what is lacking in your faith,” 1 Thess 3:10
Brings unity to the work of God at large
Paul brought a sense of unity, which resulted in material help being passed from church to church. The Church in Jerusalem was helped by other churches he visited.
Apostles envision churches with a wider implication of the body of Christ.

Terry Virgo: “Through their relationship with the thrust of an apostle the (other churches) were caught up in an international fellowship and the spreading of the Gospel worldwide. [b]Individuals in local churches who lack this large vision are often tempted to become inward-looking and negative,[/b] but when there is a world vision and the stimulus of news from other growing churches, there is a strong motivation and desire for expansion.”

[b]Ordination of elders:[/b] Acts 14:23…” Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church.” Apostles ordain elders. We do not find other elders ordaining elders in scripture

Sometimes apostles will send a representative. Titus 1:5…”The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you.” But their apostolic authority is behind him.

[b]Movements[/b]

Apostles itinerate-do not settle down. Once commissioned, they cannot be confined to one location
It is the Holy Spirit who directs apostles where to go, not any individual of local church.
Answerable to the Holy Spirit and team members
Once apostles have established a church they move on. They do not keep shepherding each local church
Apostles ordain elders to look after the work.

[b]Primary and secondary relationships:[/b]
Apostles have a “primary” relationship with the churches [b]they serve,[/b] but not an “exclusive” one.
Other ministries can enhance the “building” but never directionally.


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2004/11/10 14:04Profile
ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
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 Are there Apostles Today?

The answer is an emphatic “Yes”. They are “indispensable”.

Eph 4:7-13 mentions the exalted position of Jesus in His giving “gifts”.

The original Twelve were Pre-ascension apostles
These are Post-ascension apostles.

[b]For how long will we have apostles?[/b]
[b]God has always intended that these ministries be present in the church in every generation.[/b]
Until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son Of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ

[b]Does not an apostle have to have written part of the New Testament?[/b]
Only five of the over 12 apostles mentioned in the Bible are credited with writing parts of the New Testament: Matthew, John, Paul, Peter, James
The remaining apostles never penned a word of scripture.
Some who wrote scripture were not apostles-e.g. Mark and Luke.


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2004/11/10 14:11Profile
ZekeO
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 The how of Sending Apostles

[b]The Call.[/b]
Acts 13:1,2 “In the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. 2While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."

The [b]Holy Spirit called[/b] those who were already in ministry, bearing responsibility where they were.

He calls the in that situation, from it.

It must be a divine call. “…the work to which I have called them.”

[b]The Confirmation:[/b]
The Holy Spirit called them, but he also spoke to the other prophets and teachers.
Directly to the apostles, indirectly through others. [b]Both are essential[/b]
He spoke through the prophets and teachers, not the church, although they could represent the church.

[b]The Commission[/b]
The call must be followed by the commission-Acts 13:3. So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off.
[b]This is God’s Protection against “free-lancers”.[/b]
Prophets and teachers commission apostles, not the church.


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2004/11/10 14:18Profile
ZekeO
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Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 What is an apostolic team?

[b]In order to experience New Testament results we must go back to New Testament patterns.[/b]

Eph 4:11,12. 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up

Apostles
Prophets
Evangelists
Pastors and teachers.

All of these [b]together[/b] “prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up”. Vs.12
The declaration of Eph. 4 is that the ultimate work of the church is to be done by “God’s people”-the believers- not the paid professionals.

Larry Tomczak. “All of these gift ministries are [b]expressions of Jesus Himself.[/b] Our Lord-the Great Apostle, Great Prophet, Great Evangelist, Great Pastor, and Great Teacher-has distributed the ministry that [b]He alone embodies[/b] to the church he so loves
· The apostle is needed to govern
· The prophet is needed to guide
· The evangelist is needed to gather
· The pastor is needed to guard
· The teacher is needed to ground

The apostle is an architect (wise builder) and strategist. The prophet is…a submitted and anointed seer who brings necessary revelation and insight to keep the house of God pure and on the right track…The evangelist, contrary to his stereotyped image does more than herald the good news to the unconverted. He equips and motivates the church to become evangelistic in lifestyle while also training other gifted evangelists into their high calling.

The pastor and teacher, at the grass-roots level, labour with other leaders in providing personal care for the flock, instructing the people by teaching and example in the Word of God, and in serving the apostolic-prophetic ministries by implementing their strategy and vision…”

“ It is a group of Eph. 4:11 men, each based in a local church, who labour together in establishing new churches and oversee the rebuilding and on going development of existing churches. …This team of envisioned men seeks to establish New Testament churches where God’s redeemed people, under the loving oversight of a plurality of leaders, are ‘built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.’(Eph. 2:22)

[b]There are a number of such references to team in the New Testament.[/b]

Acts 13:13…’ From Paphos, Paul and [b]his companions[/b] sailed to Perga in Pamphylia.’

Acts 20:3-6,34…’ 3where he stayed three months. Because the Jews made a plot against him just as he was about to sail for Syria, he decided to go back through Macedonia. 4He was [b]accompanied by[/b] Sopater son of Pyrrhus from Berea, Aristarchus and Secundus from Thessalonica, Gaius from Derbe, Timothy also, and Tychicus and Trophimus from the province of Asia. 5These men went on ahead and waited for us at Troas. 6But we sailed from Philippi after the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and five days later joined the others at Troas, where we stayed seven days.’…You yourselves know that these hands of mine have supplied my own needs [b]and the needs of my companions.[/b]

Some comprise of Eph 4:11 and other people.

Rom 16:1-15 Some of these people must have travelled at some time with Paul.
Phil 4:2,3 I plead with Euodia and I plead with Syntyche to agree with each other in the Lord. 3Yes, and I ask you, loyal yokefellow, help these women [b]who have contended at my side[/b] in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and [b]the rest of my fellow workers,[/b] whose names are in the book of life.

Some teams have wider effectiveness than others.
They must have a home base where they are held accountable. Either a Jerusalem or Antioch type church.



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Zeke Oosthuis

 2004/11/10 14:27Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: The how of Sending Apostles

Hi ZekeO

Quote:
The Call.
Acts 13:1,2 “In the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. 2While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."

But this was not Paul's call. This was Paul's call; [b]And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, [u]unto whom now I send thee[/u], To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. [/b]
(Act 26:15-18 KJV)The underlined section says [b]unto whom I am now apostling you[/b]. Paul was an apostle from that day. Churches can't apostle apostles, only God can apostle apostles.



Quote:
The Holy Spirit called those who were already in ministry, bearing responsibility where they were.

He calls the in that situation, from it.

It must be a divine call. “…the work to which I have called them.”

This was not Paul's call, it was a reference to Paul's call. [b]As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto [u]I have called them[/u]. [/b] (Act 13:2 KJV)Not, to which I am calling them, but to which I 'have called them'. This is perfect tense. Barnabas and Paul had already been called, now it was time for the church to release them.



Quote:
The Confirmation:
The Holy Spirit called them, but he also spoke to the other prophets and teachers.
Directly to the apostles, indirectly through others. Both are essential
He spoke through the prophets and teachers, not the church, although they could represent the church.

The men named in verse one are said to be 'in the church'. That does not mean in a church meeting; [b]Now there were in Antioch, in the assembly which was there , prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius the Cyrenian, and Manaen, foster-brother of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. And as they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, Separate me now Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them. [/b] (Act 13:1-2 Darby) These verses identify certain recognisable giftings in the local assembly in Antioch, 5 of them, Paul and Barnabas were among them. It does not say that God spoke through one of these. The word of God came into the assembly, we are not told the channel. Leaders often presume that it must have been another leader but there is not evidence to support that view.


Quote:
The Commission
The call must be followed by the commission-Acts 13:3. So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off.
This is God’s Protection against “free-lancers”.
Prophets and teachers commission apostles, not the church.

No one 'sent them off'. The Holy Spirit said 'separate them for the work to which I have already called them. The were not 'sent' by church or by the other three. [b]Then, having fasted and prayed, and having laid their hands on them, they let them go.[/b](Act 13:3 Darby)They obeyed the word of God and released them. They were not commissioned by the other three or by the church; they were commissioned by God.

the next verse tells us who did the sending[b]They therefore, having been [u]sent forth[/u] by the Holy Spirit, went down to Seleucia, and thence sailed away to Cyprus. [/b] (Act 13:4 Darby)sent forth is 'despatched'. The word was used in business communications of the day to signify an export. So the real story behind Acts 13 is
in the assembly there were 5 recognised giftings. God had already ear-marked 2 for a wider purpose. The time had come and he required the local church to release them. They did so and the Holy Spirit despatched them. They were called, commissioned and despatched by the Holy Spirit.

other than that I agree with everyword you wrote. :-D


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Ron Bailey

 2004/11/10 14:52Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: What is an apostolic team?

Hi Zekeo

Quote:
The apostle is an architect (wise builder) and strategist. The prophet is…a submitted and anointed seer who brings necessary revelation and insight to keep the house of God pure and on the right track…The evangelist, contrary to his stereotyped image does more than herald the good news to the unconverted. He equips and motivates the church to become evangelistic in lifestyle while also training other gifted evangelists into their high calling.

The pastor and teacher, at the grass-roots level, labour with other leaders in providing personal care for the flock, instructing the people by teaching and example in the Word of God, and in serving the apostolic-prophetic ministries by implementing their strategy and vision…”


I liked the website but if this is the sub-text I am going off it. This is not biblical revelation; it is a 21st century view of the 1st century church described by project managers.

Paul had no strategy, nor a plan. He just walked a step at a time as the Spirit enabled him. We have no idea of the 'strategy' of any other apostles.
The above description of a prophet has nothing in common with the prophets we find in the New Testament; this is project-management speak. Keeping the team on vision.
The above definition of an evangelist has no support from the New Testament. Can you hear the management speak again? he equips and motivates!
The above description of the role of the pastor-teacher has no support from the New Testament either. This is just a gentler version of the old shepherding methodology.

and... there is no reference to 'teams' in the New Testament. These are 21st century project management templates imposed onto a historical record of spontaneous expansion in the power of the Spirit.

This is not the description of a New Testament pattern, but that of controlling technocrats with their franchise methodologies.

My apologies if this comes over strongly. I did tell you that this topic was one of my passions! :-?


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Ron Bailey

 2004/11/10 15:10Profile





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