| what is the prophetic movement judging itself by?|
What is this " prophetic movement" judging itself by? The Scriptures? I think not. People who go to these types of churches and conferences are there for the carnival like atmosphere and the supposed manifestations of the Spirit. They get all psyched up, but go home with nothing more than an emotional experience. True moving of God's Spirit is through the preaching of His word, with a focus on the Cross of Christ. The Gospel gives us all the power we need. Not to say God can't move in various ways, because we cannot put God in a box. But He is a God of order, not disorder. He speaks through His Word. That is how all prophecy should be judged. Not through subjective opinion or feelings. I was a part of the charismatic movement for a long time. I can tell you that I have learned more in what some would call a "dry" church than I ever did in one of the carnivals some call the "house of the Lord". We must ask ourselves, is this really how Jesus speaks to us? Through unBiblical manifestations of tongues-though Paul gives specific instruction against the public speaking in tongues unless interpreted. Or through rolling on the ground or jumping up and down? Or by working the crowd up so much through the right tone of voice and music that people will think its "from the Lord."
OR, DOES JESUS SPEAK THROUGH THE SCRIPTURES? The orthodox preaching of the Word of God is how He primarily reaches us. This can be judged by the conviction of sin, leading to good fruit- holy lives of believers, not through how many got "baptized in the holy spirit". God can still do miracles. God still moves mightily through His church. But some have made God into a show and sought to profit from His power, misleading thousands and deceiving more. Jesus spoke of them when he talked about the wheat and the tares. he also said that many would come to Him and say "Lord, did we not do many mighty things in Your Name?" Then Jesus will say "depart, I never knew you you slaves of the devil" I would caution members of these overly charismatic churches, are the Scriptured preached in their correct context in your church? Is most of the talk about the gifts of the Spirit and money? Do you find yourself not being able to worship unless the music is good and the preaching is shallow and story like? Then pray and ask God if He is being glorified in your church. I fell to the deception of this prophetic movement. It caused me to lose a proper perspective of who God really is and what my focus as a servant of Christ should be. We are called to take up our cross, repent, battle our sin and deny ourselves daily. You will never hear that from the pulpit of most overly charismatic churches. You will get preachers 2500 dollar suits, gold chains and 20 million dollar sanctuaries asking for you to "sow you seed so you can get your blessing." May God have mercy on us.
| 2004/11/9 2:15||Profile|
Clinch Mountain, Virginia
| Re: what is the prophetic movement judging itself by?|
It takes courage and boldness to write what you have written and I totally agree with you. I, too, was once a member of a charismatic church and found the same things to be true, and came to the same conclusions, as you have.
Here's an example of what I found. Unless you spoke in tongues you were not "really" saved, so many of us faked it -- a very easy thing to do. The whole experience made me question religion and I finally fell away. It was by the grace of God that I returned to Jesus -- this time not by emotion but by His Holy Word written in Scripture, and by exercising discernment.
You are correct. This kind of eccleciastic hocus pokus is a dangerous thing -- especially for new Christians. God works in different people in different ways. I don't deny the gifts of the Spirit, but I also firmly believe that when we approach God in worship it must be in awe of His holiness -- not in a "carnival" spirit.
As for the prophetic movement, who really knows? For myself, I stay far away from any kind of "movement." I fear it might be of men rather than God. Remember David Koresh? Jim Jones?
| 2004/11/9 6:39||Profile|
| Re: what is the prophetic movement judging itself by?|
It's 2A.M. and Holy Spirit just woke me up. He was speaking to me about the hurt and confusion which so many are feeling about their involvement in these things. I have heard many say that they once were involved, but God has led them out. Now, they are really hurt at these ministries for the wrong leading that is taking place and how it is leading so many astray. God was reminding me of Joseph. In Genesis 50:20, he said, "But as for you, ye thought evil against me, but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." And on down in verses 24 and 25, he says, "And Joseph said unto his brethren, I die: and God will surely visit you, and bring you out of this land unto the land which he sware to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob. And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence." Joseph's path,wich led him to be in Egypt,was orchestrated by God so that God would have a deliverer stationed at the proper place at the proper time. The same thing is true of Moses. The events which carried them there were extremely painful, but necessary, in order to make them into the men, and have them be where they needed to be, at the proper time. So many of us have regretted our past involvement in these things, but I believe we need to thank God for these experiences because many are now in a position to help all of those others still in captivity. There are many, many genuine seekers among these crowds. We were once among them. The great deception and powerlessness which has been upon the church is a judgement of God. But when God judges his people, he always remembers mercy. Obviously,God has now turned his hand from his people to his enemies. Those of us who were in there are in a position to function as deliverers for those who are hurting. We should be thankful for this privilege. What was intended to destroy us, God has meant for good. We find ourselves here, "for such a time as this." The awesome thing which struck me from the scriptures in Genesis was Joseph's prophetic declaration for the future: "God will surely visit you". I am excited about these things which are happening, because I see it as God's deliverance which is coming to the Church. Many are saying that this is God's judgement on the church. God's judgement was in allowing us to be led away into captivity.The deception which has been in the prophetic movement isn't the only darkness the Church has been in. God's deliverance has come in the form of opening our eyes. And it's coming to more and more everyday.
I just realized in the middle of the night, I have never really been an overcoming Christian until just recently. I've lived my entire Christian life in frustration, knowing deep down inside that something was terribly wrong. Think of the children of Israel who were born into captivity. They never knew anything but slavery. Their relatives told them that they were God's chosen people, but that must have seemed like a joke.
I believe that's how the church in America has been for all of my lifetime. There have only been small uprisings of power which have always been squashed back down. We have been in bondage to deception, powerlessness, pride, etc. I believe we now need to look forward with expectation and hope for the future, not regretting the past. GOD WILL SURELY VISIT US! And the place he is taking us into is the Promised Land. I believe we are entering into a time of reaping the promise of God. The Church will arise from these ashes and be a great light in this present darkness. She will not walk in deception,she will walk in great fruitfullness. she will overcome her enemies by the blood of the Lamb, the word of her testimony, and she will love not her life unto death! I, for one, am extremely encouraged! Perhaps I will see the beginnings of a true outpouring of God before I die. Leonard Ravenhill spoke of it and waited for it for a lifetime, but he died having not received the promise. Yet, he sowed into the promise his entire life. Even if I die before the church arises, I know it will happen some day.
I fell to the deception of this prophetic movement. It caused me to lose a proper perspective of who God really is and what my focus as a servant of Christ should be. We are called to take up our cross, repent, battle our sin and deny ourselves daily. You will never hear that from the pulpit of most overly charismatic churches. You will get preachers 2500 dollar suits, gold chains and 20 million dollar sanctuaries asking for you to "sow you seed so you can get your blessing." May God have mercy on us.
I believe God is already showing mercy. I attend a hugely Charismatic church and he preaches the house down on sin and repentance. His sermons would be widely respected on this site. He sounds like a modern day Ravenhill. We worship totally Charismatic, but it's authentic joy proceeding out of hearts yeilding to God, because that's what we are taught.
| 2004/11/9 6:51||Profile|
| Re: charasmatic church|
Dian, many things you have said have been on my mind as well. I have been thinking about how my involvement with my last church (which was charasmatic) has a great deal to do with where I am now. And this whole pondering thing of : if it wasn't for that part of my journey, would i be here on this current part of the journey. I didn't know a thing about anything prophetic until someone there told me. I had no idea why I felt so burdened and sick of sin inside. I didn't know why I saw so many things wrong and others did not. The lady in charge of the women's ministry was the one to pull me aside and say "I think you may be prophetic, that's why you feel this way." I am so thankful for some of the information I got and the leading in the right direction. Of course, after a while I had to veer off into another direction because I didn't agree with what they thought prophetic really was.
But still I see how the Lord used certain people and certain situations to bring me here. Now, i have to ask, would He have brought me here through another path? His will was that I was brought here this way. for whatever reason. to see the truth, to see the false hood maybe. God is sovereign and I am thankful for whatever He has done. I am thankful that I saw the truth and had the courage to stand by myself at the time- when I saw that their idea of the prophetic and what jesus was telling me was completely different.
But still, I am thankful for that lady and for that church - at the time. God used it as a stepping stone for me. He uses many things as stepping stones- even though they may not be where we are supposed to stay. It is a very deep thing and mysterious to thing think about. All of the stepping stones God has placed in our lives to get us to where we are now.
And just like a pendulem, many of us, when we are turned off by one "side" or part of the church, we tend to swing way over to the other side for quite awhile. But luckily now I have found a balance. I know where I stand (with the Lord as my foundation and rock). I truly believe that those who are seeking to become more of Him and less of themselves- if they are willing to carry their cross and follow after Him, they will be found. They will be delievered from falsehood and deception.
I was once there- maybe not ingrossed in it, bcause I found out early- but many of us, even here have come out of some falsehood- becuase we were seeking for Him, because we were willing to follow after him no matter what the cost. There are others like that, i am sure, in the many charsmatic movements today. Everyday, I am sure that one here and one there is hearing the Lord call them to come away with Him. But He used whatever circumstances they were in, to get them where they are now- ready to follow hard after him no matter what the cost.
we must see that faithfulness of the Lord to bring out (or to Himself) the many who HE ALREADY KNOWS will come out from among any falsehood.
Another point I think you were making that I will also point to is that all falsehood is not just in the prophetic movement or in the charasmatic churches. There is tons of false, 'christian city' teaching in the majority of churches- whether they be methodist, baptist, whatever. The Purpose driven life -and those types of gospels ("easy believism") are being preached and indontrinated into the minds of people all over america. this is a false gospel as well. and it is effecting many MORE people than the prophetic movement. Christians in America are getting preached a false gospel of ease and success and comfort.
my neighborhood is a perfect example. Most everyone in my little suburban neighborhood attends a "christian" church. they go twice on sundays and once during the week. they are involved in the bible studies and the clubs, etc...
Yet these same people have ghosts and witches hanging in their yard at Halloween. They are the ones who are having people over on Friday night for some beers to watch the game. They are the same people who have money(cars, material wealth, success) as their idol- as well, as religious pride- because you know they feel like they are so righteous because they make up for all the sinning they do by going to church 3 times a week.
Well, I won't go on. I could but won't. :-)
Just more things to think about and pray about.
In Him, Chanin
| 2004/11/9 9:47||Profile|
| Re: It's an excellent thread|
Being a very emotional person, I gravitated to this type of experience as well but have since moved on.
The trap as I see it is in the emotional response alone. In other words, if we're somehow moved then Jesus must have really been it right? There has to be more than just tears. Repentance has to result in a turning away, not just a Godly sorrow.
I'm reminded of Acts 26:20 which states "First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds."
We prove our repentance if our walk & talk match. With emotionalism we end up where I was at short time ago which is at the end of Isaiah 50 which says "But now, all you who light fires
and provide yourselves with flaming torches, go, walk in the light of your fires and of the torches you have set ablaze. This is what you shall receive from my hand: You will lie down in torment."
I pray that we no longer light our own fires because the possibility of deception is great.
There's certainly nothing wrong with tears. I love the gift of tears but if it's that alone without a change of direction (i.e. repentance), then there's a significant problem.
| 2004/11/9 13:25||Profile|