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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Watchman

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Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2035
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
If others shrink from the obloquy of such a work, he will not.... He loves his fellow-men too well. They may upbraid him; they may call him a misanthropist, or a prophet of evil; they may ascribe his warnings to the worst of motives, such as pride, or arrogance, or self-esteem, or malice, or envy; but he will give no heed to these unjust insinuations.



I love Horatius Bonar. He did not sugar-coat anything.


_________________
Oracio

 2010/12/21 0:22Profile









 Re: Death can come upon you by not loving the truth. The Watchman.




34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.

35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’;

36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’

37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

40 “He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.

41 He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward. And he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward...................................

" Those who want to continue thinking that things are not that bad can continue in their delusion. Jeremiah cried out day and night with little results to show. Success in God's eyes is not about numbers but faithfulness to Him and His Word."...Oracio

Amen.

 2010/12/21 0:41









 Re:

As someone who believes in the role of watchmen and people with " beautiful feet," runners from Isa 52 I also have sympathy with brother Jimp's position. I have met self-proclaimed watchmen, especially some young men, who believe themselves to be watchmen and cry out judgment on the streets. What was striking about my own experience with these young men was their lack of love. They wanted judgment, they were calling down fire from heaven.

I think of Abraham interceding with God for Sodom! Sodmom brothers and sisters. He knew that God was going to destroy the cities and in Gen 18 he actually gets in front of God and intercedes for what is still a by-word for wickedness thousands of years later. Brothers and sisters, this is the heart of God. Did justice fall? Yes, Gods justice fell. Moses intereceded on behalf of a people who had just fallen down and worshipped a calf and had risen up to " play." Now, ultimately only two of that whole generation made it out of the desert, but in the crying out to God by Moses we see the heart of God.

We know that " God so loved the world." We know this to be the heart of God. He does not rejoice in the destruction of the wicked. He would have that none would be lost. Yet, we also know this, God is love. When men that have been called by God stand up and be watchmen on the wall, be runners with beautiful feet, you will know them. You will always know them by their love, no matter how hard their message. As brother Carter Conlon put it, " beware the angry watchmen."

And so who is a genuine watchmen or runner? What are some of the characteristics we should expect to see? Well here are some basics......... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ek0FEVWCyok

 2010/12/21 0:52
UntoBabes
Member



Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1031
Oregon

 Re:

The Heart of God.

I was stirred to ask God today a question that had occupied my thinking for a while. Lord, what do see in man ? What made you step into flesh, come and live on a corrupted earth, and Die…? For man..? Man had tried to take your place, and be like God. He sided with your enemy, the Devil. It doesn’t make sense.



The heart of God is love… For sinners… And yes, even those who will never repent.

I was taught that since God does not change, His love does not change, it stands the reason that he does not love sinners who He knows by His omniscience will never repent. I was taught that the verses in Matthew 5: 43-48 do not speak of God’s love, but of His goodness. But after reading it over and over again, I found that it does speak of God’ love.

Read this,
“43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”

The passage speaks of love. Jesus said: We aught to love even as the Father loves. We aught to love our enemies even as He loves His enemies. He continues to give sunlight and rain to those who will use the sunlight to murder and commit adultery,… and will never repent! We know that not every one will repent. In fact, very few will. And God knows that…and continues to be good to them…..Why?
We are told in Romans: 2: 4 that the goodness of God has a purpose. It purposes to bring men to repentance…For God is not willing that any would perish but that all may come to repentance… He has no delight in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked would turn from His wicked way and live. Now ask this. If God desires that the wicked would repent that he may be spared eternal judgment…Wouldn’t that mean love?


The Judgment of God.

Here is where things may seem contradictory.

That same goodness the wicked receives now will stand on the Day of Judgment to accuse and condemn Him. The sunshine, rain, health, prosperity, blessings,…will be the court jury that will testify against the accused and pass the eternal sentence.

Jesus said to the crowd: “If anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.”

And again: “If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin….If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin;”…

That same Word that was meant to bring salvation will stand as a witness against the wicked on that great day of the Lord to bring condemnation.
Behold the goodness and severity of God….For the Lord is just and loves justice, the upright will see His face.

O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?


_________________
Fifi

 2010/12/21 16:53Profile
UntoBabes
Member



Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1031
Oregon

 Re:

The angry watchmen by Carter Conlon.

I have listened the this message a few months ago. The only problem I see with it is that it is unbiblical.

First, Mr. Conlon was talking about the angry watchmen who pronounce judgment. He called them the accusers of the brethren and workers of the devil. Who take certain passages out of the scripture out of context. I believe he was referring to the warnings in the Book of Hebrews.

He said that these are the ones Paul talks about in 1 Tim 4
1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meat, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

He said that they forbid the bride ( church ) from marrying the groom ( Christ ).
He was able to get that from verse 3 in 1 Timothy.
He also was able to find the connection between 1Timothy and the Song of Solomon since the latter speaks of the bride and the groom as 1Timothy does.
As for the meat part in 1 Timothy ( commanding to abstain from meat ), he was also able to find that in the Song of Solomon. He said that these angry watchmen forbid the bride and the groom to meet.

That is where he got scratching my head. Is it talking about the MEAT that you eat, or MEET as in “ to meet in the street”

The problem with Mr. Conlon and the like who try to take away the warnings of the Scriptures is that they are moving with a human sentiment. They would go as far as saying the Apostle who wrote these passages was the Devil himself because to them, any one who says that people need to be careful not to fall away since the Bible teaches it is impossible for such to be renewed again unto repentance would be the ACCUSER OF THE BRETHEREN.


Should we take away the warning passages from the scriptures in order to encourage people and give them hope? Is that how God works?

4And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
5So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
6For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
7And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
8But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
9Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.


What a harsh message Jonah had!!! But wait, why didn’t the people get discouraged?
What if Jonah had said this instead: God loves you. He has elected you from the foundation of the world. He loved you when you were yet a sinner, and He knows very well that you are unable to repent.

What fruit would that have produced?


_________________
Fifi

 2010/12/21 17:01Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2035
Whittier CA USA

 Re: True Watchmen

good post Untobabes.

Just to clarify, I agree with appolos/Frank, that the true preacher should have the love God as the foundation of his motive and message. And I agree that there should be a balanced theme of both the severity and kindness of God(Rom.11:22).

However, I used to think that every single message from a true preacher of Christ has to have the good news and love of God proclaimed and expressed in it and not just the hard message of God's Judgment. I realized that that sentiment is not really biblical, even in considering just the New Testament.

John Baptist, Christ and the apostles did not always include the good news in their preaching. They sometimes left that part out, depending on how they were led of the Spirit in any given situation.

I too used to judge all preachers whom I would hear preach only warnings and judgment in their message on the streets. I am not that quick to judge nowadays.

That said, sometimes I can tell in my spirit when a street preacher is not from God, that is, when the love of God and men is not the underlying motivation.


_________________
Oracio

 2010/12/21 17:12Profile
UntoBabes
Member



Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1031
Oregon

 Re:

Quote:
I agree with appolos/Frank, that the true preacher should have the love God as the foundation of his motive and message. And I agree that there should be a balanced theme of both the severity and kindness of God(Rom.11:22).



I agree too.
If giving one's body to burn, or one's money for the poor in nothing to God without love, then how much more would be giving the offending message of the gospel without love.

If people are to be offended let them be offended at the message, not the attitude by which the message was delivered.

If people can not see tears in our eyes, and hear the choking in our voice when we tell them that they are going to hell if they do not repent and believe on the Lord Jesus, then we should be silent.


_________________
Fifi

 2010/12/21 17:34Profile
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, Jesus did not use the term watchman in the accounts of His ministry but He did use the word Pharisee.most of the watchmen i have run into would fall into this catagory,not all...if you want to have fun come to new orleans where i have ministered for years during mardi gras when a million sinning,obnoxeous,drunken people are and try to preach judgement.it did not work in sodom either...jimp

 2010/12/21 20:00Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2035
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

hi, by watchmen we mean servants who desire to declare the whole councel of God, both the kindness and severity of God proclaimed throughout Scripture. If you want to call them Pharisees go ahead, they do that with many, including Ravenhill, who you claim to be very fond of.

Did not Ravenhill say we need more Holy Ghost-filled hellfire preachers in these dark days? If you don't like the word watchman you can call them that instead.

Many Christians today tune Ravenhill's messages off because they think they are too extreme and legalistic/Pharisaic. Why? because he emphasized true holiness unto the Lord, and constantly rebuked the Church for her lack of burning love toward Jesus Christ and her spiritual adultery.


_________________
Oracio

 2010/12/21 21:58Profile









 Re:

I've been studying this, out of sheer curiosity. What I've found is that not all watchmen are prophets but all prophets are watchmen.
I believe that GOD 'does' call some to 'watch' more than others but for the sake of others - out of sheer love for their fellow Family members - and as was posted here by our brothers - this 'whole' walk is out of sheer Love and nothing less. Not for 'self' nor for attention nor for admiration from others, but just the sheer Love of He Who IS The Truth and for the protection of HIS sheep - even if it costs us our lives.

I don't feel anyone should 'declare' themselves to BE a watchman, prophet, teacher or anything other than His child, because we are One Body. We Need each other. No part of the Body is better than the other. We're all needed and need each other.

Jimp, I've met more false prophets, false teachers, false apostles, false evangelists and false 'watchmen' then I can bear anymore, but this below from Ravenhill still speaks volumes. I also know that Jesus spoke differently to sinners than to the 'religious'. Paul also could get pretty upset with those who twisted HIS Word or led others to do so or to sin - IN the Church.
I'm sure that that aged Paul as well, more than any of his ship wrecks, floggings, etc etc did.
I don't believe anyone should or can "seek to be a prophet" and that 'title' (and others) has been more abused in the last 20 or so years than ever before in the History of the Church, but nonetheless - Satan always counterfeits the genuine since the beginning and 'that' will only increase as time goes on. But I do believe that for the Love of His Body, we should all seek to be watchmen/women.
All we can pray is for a Love of His Truth and pray for Mercy to not be deceived - taking special notice juat how many times that Jesus told us to do both.
GOD Bless you.


Picture of a Prophet by Leonard Ravenhill

The prophet in his day is fully accepted of God and totally rejected by men.

Years back, Dr. Gregory Mantle was right when he said, "No man can be fully accepted until he is totally rejected." The prophet of the Lord is aware of both these experiences. They are his "brand name."

The group, challenged by the prophet because they are smug and comfortably insulated from a perishing world in their warm but untested theology, is not likely to vote him "Man of the year" when he refers to them as habituates of the synagogue of Satan!

The prophet comes to set up that which is upset. His work is to call into line those who are out of line! He is unpopular because he opposes the popular in morality and spirituality. In a day of faceless politicians and voiceless preachers, there is not a more urgent national need than that we cry to God for a prophet! The function of the prophet, as Austin-Sparks once said, "has almost always been that of recovery."

The prophet is God's detective seeking for a lost treasure. The degree of his effectiveness is determined by his measure of unpopularity. Compromise is not known to him.
He has no price tags.
He is totally "otherworldly."
He is unquestionably controversial and unpardonably hostile.
He marches to another drummer!
He breathes the rarefied air of inspiration.
He is a "seer" who comes to lead the blind.
He lives in the heights of God and comes into the valley with a "thus saith
the Lord."
He shares some of the foreknowledge of God and so is aware of
impending judgment.
He lives in "splendid isolation."
He is forthright and outright, but he claims no birthright.
His message is "repent, be reconciled to God or else...!"
His prophecies are parried.
His truth brings torment, but his voice is never void.
He is the villain of today and the hero of tomorrow.
He is excommunicated while alive and exalted when dead!
He is dishonored with epithets when breathing and honored with
epitaphs when dead.
He is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, but few "make the grade" in his class.
He is friendless while living and famous when dead.
He is against the establishment in ministry; then he is established as a saint
by posterity.
He eats daily the bread of affliction while he ministers, but he feeds the Bread of
Life to those who listen.
He walks before men for days but has walked before God for years.
He is a scourge to the nation before he is scourged by the nation.
He announces, pronounces, and denounces!
He has a heart like a volcano and his words are as fire.
He talks to men about God.
He carries the lamp of truth amongst heretics while he is lampooned by men.
He faces God before he faces men, but he is self-effacing.
He hides with God in the secret place, but he has nothing to hide in
the marketplace.
He is naturally sensitive but supernaturally spiritual.
He has passion, purpose and pugnacity.
He is ordained of God but disdained by men.

Our national need at this hour is not that the dollar recover its strength, or that we save face over the Watergate affair, or that we find the answer to the ecology problem. We need a God-sent prophet!

I am bombarded with talk or letters about the coming shortages in our national life: bread, fuel, energy. I read between the lines from people not practiced in scaring folk. They feel that the "seven years of plenty" are over for us. The "seven years of famine" are ahead. But the greatest famine of all in this nation at this given moment is a FAMINE OF THE HEARING OF THE WORDS OF GOD (Amos 8:11).

Millions have been spent on evangelism in the last twenty-five years. Hundreds of gospel messages streak through the air over the nation every day. Crusades have been held; healing meetings have made a vital contribution. "Come-outers" have "come out" and settled, too, without a nation-shaking revival. Organizers we have. Skilled preachers abound. Multi-million dollar Christian organizations straddle the nation. BUT where, oh where, is the prophet? Where are the incandescent men fresh from the holy place? Where is the Moses to plead in fasting before the holiness of the Lord for our moldy morality, our political perfidy, and sour and sick spirituality?

GOD'S MEN ARE IN HIDING UNTIL THE DAY OF THEIR SHOWING FORTH. They will come. The prophet is violated during his ministry, but he is vindicated by history.

There is a terrible vacuum in evangelical Christianity today. The missing person in our ranks is the prophet. The man with a terrible earnestness. The man totally otherworldly. The man rejected by other men, even other good men, because they consider him too austere, too severely committed, too negative and unsociable.

Let him be as plain as John the Baptist.
Let him for a season be a voice crying in the wilderness of modern theology and
stagnant "churchianity."
Let him be as selfless as Paul the apostle.
Let him, too, say and live, "This ONE thing I do."
Let him reject ecclesiastical favors.
Let him be self-abasing, nonself-seeking, nonself-projecting, nonself- righteous,
nonself-glorying, nonself-promoting.
Let him say nothing that will draw men to himself but only that which will move
men to God.
Let him come daily from the throne room of a holy God, the place where he has
received the order of the day.
Let him, under God, unstop the ears of the millions who are deaf through the
clatter of shekels milked from this hour of material mesmerism.
Let him cry with a voice this century has not heard because he has seen a vision
no man in this century has seen. God send us this Moses to lead us from the
wilderness of crass materialism, where the rattlesnakes of lust bite us and where
enlightened men, totally blind spiritually, lead us to an ever-nearing Armageddon.

God have mercy! Send us PROPHETS!



 2010/12/22 2:50





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