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revival9
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Joined: 2004/6/6
Posts: 140
Arizona, USA

 Re:

I'm sorry Donna, I had your name wrong! forgive me :roll:

Mrs. Fred


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Mrs. Fred

 2004/11/9 12:39Profile
Gideons
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Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 474
Virginia

 Re: Prayer is the operative word here

Yes, we need to keep Brother Andrew in prayer.

As I as read this thread I was reminded of a couple of verses in Romans 12 "3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. 4Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function,"

None of us have positions in the body of Christ, only functions. I believe this thread, as well as a couple of other threads on this same topic are ample reminders of that.


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Ed Pugh

 2004/11/9 12:48Profile
ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
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 Re:

This sort of is in reference to the Storm in the tea cup, parts 1&2. :-D

From what I have read God starting restoring truth to the church in the reformation and has been ever since. God never intended his church to stop at the healing or charismatic or prophetic or the apostolic restorations. Its the same as Peter blurting out that he wanted to build a tabernacle on the mountain. The attitude of, we need to remember this momment because God is never ever going to do anything else. Which boxes him in a tad.
These are not seperate truths existing on there own, it is to fulfill the ultimate expression of church that...to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.
Eph 3:21

Every new move has always been persecuted by the proceeding one. I don't have the exact dates and times, but I will look for it. These truths have always existed but God has been blowing through his church wanting her to coming to maturity, and highlighting them to be restored as normal church life.

Quote:
Quote: G-d will bring forth His Apostles who will set up the governments of the church. We've proved over and over again in the church community that we need governing.



Paul saw himself as an expert builder laying christ in peoples hearts. 1 cor 3:9,10 So he was deffinitley building something.
Coming from a church background which is this: http://www.ncmi.net/ I would have to agree with this statement. I encourage you to look at the site and listen to the SA LTT audio files from 2004 especially to the ones of Dudley Daniel. The irony of it all. ;-)

NCMI would calls itself an apostolic/prophetic team, but alomost knowone on that team would claim to be and even let themselves be called an apostle. Even though though team does apostolic work. The team breaks open new territory and establishes effective bases of ministry through which we can disciple the nations. I really rate this site, there are good people here with solid theological input, but one thing I have noticed is the total disillisionment with church and church leadership. Especially with the excesses that occur. Jesus is coming back for a pure spotless bride, so he will build his church with or without the likes of the coalition of apostles or this and that prophetic network.

Quote:

Inthelight wrote:Is Jesus the foundation of the church or are these modern day apostles?



Modern apostles or not :the church is still... built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. Eph 2:20 NIV

We need apostles and prophets to lay foundations and/or repair existing "cracks" in those already laid.

If you had to meet an apostle would know what he looks like? Would it be that he had nothing, lots of people have nothing. So it can't be that. Would it be that he would have scars all over his body, lots of people have scars for their faith, so it can't be that. I will start a seperate thread on this issue.

Blessings,


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2004/11/9 14:40Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
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 Re:

Quote:
Modern apostles or not :the church is still... built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. Eph 2:20 NIV We need apostles and prophets to lay foundations and/or repair existing "cracks" in those already laid.



Yes we do still need to be equipped for ministry, edified, and built up;

[i]And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:[/i](Ephesians 4:11-12)

But I think it's important to note a difference between Ephesians 4:11 and Ephesians 2:20.

[i]Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];[/i]
(Ephesians 2:19-20)

These verses refer to the work and witness of the apostles and prophets of old, who pointed to Jesus in what they said and wrote. In Ephesians 2:20 we have a group of men with a special task of laying the foundation of the church, that task is complete and cannot be repeated. They established the faith, any ministry afterwards contends earnestly for that faith, it doesn't add something new.

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2004/11/9 16:47Profile
philologos
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 Re:

Quote:
We need apostles and prophets to lay foundations and/or repair existing "cracks" in those already laid.

That foundation is laid.
This Ephesians text is declaring that the saints have already been built on the foundation which has already been laid. [b]So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, [u]having been built[/u] on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, [/b](Eph 2:19-20 NASB)[i]The gentive case in the original, represented by the preposition "of" frequently has an objective sense instead of the appositional. That is to say, in the present instance the meaning would be, not that the apostles and prophets were themselves the subjects, forming part of the foundation, but that the foundation was the object laid by their agency, and this is a fact.[/i] W E Vine; The Church & The Churches. That is just making it plain that the foundation was laid [u]by their agency[/u]; they are not the foundation.

Eph 2:20 uses the Aorist tense, best regarded as a simple past tense. This cannot be 'was being' (that would be the imperfect tense) or 'is being' (that would be the present tense), it can only mean 'was'. The NASB gets the sense just right. The foundation was already in place when Paul wrote Ephesians and, in fact, when he wrote 1 Corinthians. [b]For no one is able to lay any other foundation beside the One having been laid, who is Jesus Christ. [/b](1Co 3:11 LITV)


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Ron Bailey

 2004/11/9 18:00Profile
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Joined: 2003/10/9
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 Re:

In Hymn

I'm always suspicious when we talk too much about ourselves. Somebody pointed out that hymnody took a downward trend when we left the great objective hymns that talked about God and began to sing the gospel songs that talk about us. There was a day when men sang "Holy, Holy, Holy," and "O Worship the King," and they talked objectively about the greatness of God. Then we backslid into that gutter where we still are where everything is about "I." "I'm so happy," "I'm so blest," "I'm so nice," "I'm so good," always "I." The difference between heaven and hell is the difference between God and I. Jesus Christ, by canceling His "I" was the Christ of God, not as I will, but as Thou wilt. The devil by magnifying his "I" became the devil-when he said, "I will arise, and I will raise my throne above the throne of God."

--A.W. Tozer (1897-1963) "Tozer on Worship and Entertainment," Camp Hill,
PA: Christian Publications, Inc., 1997, p. 96


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Jouko Hakola

 2004/11/9 22:42Profile
ZekeO
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 Re:

Quote:

InTheLight wrote:
These verses refer to the work and witness of the apostles and prophets of old, who pointed to Jesus in what they said and wrote. In Ephesians 2:20 we have a group of men with a special task of laying the foundation of the church, that task is complete and cannot be repeated. They established the faith, any ministry afterwards contends earnestly for that faith, it doesn't add something new.



Not all the Apostles wrote scripture, so the inference that to be an Eph 2:20 prophet/apostle is to have the ability/right to add to the cannon of scripture, which is not the emphasis at all. it is not adding something new to our base line of truth(the Bible) it is laying line upon line of that truth in a systematic fashion in the church so that it can be a holy habitation for God.

It is all about the embracing of truth not only at a personal level, but at a corporate level(the church) and a trans-local level (outside our church locality). You know and I know that the major difference between a new Christian and a mature believer is the amount of truth(Light) that they are walking in. It is the same at a corporate level, The Eph 4:11 giftings are involved in laying foundations of truth in the very life of the church. Hence Apostolic teams. Sent teams to train and equip the saints. It is interesting to read the rest of that chapter to see we difinitley need these giftings to have/experience what he is saying. For what I have read on this site about different groupings of interest it certainly isn't the case.

so that the body of Christ may be built up 13
until we all reach unity in the faith
and in the knowledge of the Son of God
and become mature,
attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves,
and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
15Instead, speaking the truth in love,
we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

He is taliking about the whole body, thats everygrouping that emphasises a certain truth, every denomination, which I believe is in the thousands. If that is the case we certainly need the whole five-fold ministry to do that.

tbc-ed,


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2004/11/9 22:42Profile
ZekeO
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 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
That is just making it plain that the foundation was laid [u]by their agency[/u]; they are not the foundation.



i agree, the emphasis is more on what they do and there function. Not Gods man of power for the hour
Quote:

[b]For no one is able to lay any other foundation beside the One having been laid, who is Jesus Christ. [/b](1Co 3:11 LITV)



And he is the truth, it not about adding something other than Christ to the foundation of the church.

And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head [b]over everything[/b] for the church, 23which is his body, [b]the fullness of him[/b] who fills everything in every way. Eph 1:22.23


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2004/11/9 22:53Profile
philologos
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 Re:

Hi ZekeO

Quote:
Sent teams to train and equip the saints. It is interesting to read the rest of that chapter to see we difinitley need these giftings to have/experience what he is saying.


There are some key things pertaining to the prepositions in this passage which have powerful impact on the way we interpret this passage.

[b]And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; [u]For[/u] the perfecting of the saints, [u]for[/u] the work of the ministry, [/u]for[/u] the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: [/b](Eph 4:11-13 KJV) This is the familiar translation but some other versions distinguish between the prepositions translated 'for' in the KJV;[b]for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ: [/b](Eph 4:12 ASV)

The first 'for' in Eph 4:12 is 'pros' which means 'towards'. In other words the goal of the four-fold gift-men of verse 11 is the 'perfecting' of the saints. The preposition 'pros-for' denotes the ultimate purpose of the gift-men. The verb 'perfecting' is unusual it is used to describe the 'fitting out of a ship' or the 'furnishing of a house'. The sense is of getting something ready; ready for what?

The second and third 'for's in Eph 4:12 is the preposition 'eis' which can also signify purpose. However in this context it is not the 'purpose' of the four-fold gift-men, but the purpose of the 'perfected saints'. It is the 'perfected saints' who are to accomplish the 'work of service' and the 'building up of the body of Christ', not the four-fold gift-men of verse 11. The 'perfected saints' are to continue their 'work of service' and to continue 'to build up the body of Christ' [u]until we all come[/u] into the unity of the faith etc.

The local church and its function is not in view in Ephesians; the focus is the universal church. The four-fold gift-men were not given to local churches but for the whole church of individual saints, not just trans-local but global horizontally and eternal vertically. The apostles, prophets, evangelists and pastor-teachers of every age continue their work of 'perfecting the saints'. SermonIndex is a thrilling outworking of this concept.

The New Testament has no apostolic-teams; it has apostles and their support groups. I like the look of your website; the function of men linked together in relationship is a powerful gift to the whole church. However, I still see the concept of stratification and its tendency to look towards the fourfold-giftmen for direction which makes me uncomfortable.

A hundred years ago Roland Allen wrote a book called the Spontaneous Expansion of the Church. This book is now widely regarded by mission organizations and should be on the must-read list of any who are interesting in missionary work or church planting. One of his theses is that at every moment of its development the local church should be capable of being self-sustaining. Anything other than this inevitably produces a dependence upon the 'regular' input of others. Dependence upon the fourfold-giftmen as a regular input pattern of local church life can only frustrate the development of the 'perfected saints' in their work of service and building of the body. We have all seen well-meaning western missions who pour money into emerging local churches in less developed countries. The consequence is always a dependence upon the outside agency. This financial dependency is often the mirror of a spiritual dependency. This is not conducive to the 'saints' doing their job. I do not see the fourfold-giftmen as being permanent elements of any local or trans-local setting. They are occasional and itinerant in their role, although I do agree that they could well be one thing at home and another elsewhere. It is the tendency to dependence on agencies outside the local church which is the skeleton of denomination no matter what fresh labels it is given.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/11/10 3:01Profile
ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
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Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

Hi Ron,

Quote:

The sense is of getting something ready; ready for what?


To get all your eschatological red flags waving, For Jesus’ return. :-)

Quote:

…but global horizontally and eternal vertically.



Trans-local, pretty much sums it up

Quote:

However, I still see the concept of stratification and its tendency to look towards the fourfold-giftmen for direction which makes me uncomfortable.



You of all people know that titles given in New Testament describe more the function of that person, but with that title came the Godly authourity to exercise that particular gifting. I believe our perspective of who and what the gifting represents, should be our basis for understanding. These are all manifestations of our Lord and hence these things can by tied directly to him and not to the men who are used to fulfil them. It is the leadership in the church that has allowed the sheep to place the 'supermen' on pedistles, Paul said that the Apostles were the scum of the earth, refuse, rubbish put on public display for everyone to see.

Quote:

Anything other than this inevitably produces a dependence upon the 'regular' input of others. Dependence upon the fourfold-giftmen as a regular input pattern of local church life can only frustrate the development of the 'perfected saints' in their work of service and building of the body.



I think the key thought is the word ‘dependance’. I think in relation to an Apostolic team that word strays on the side of the negative effects of greek style government upon which most modern churches base their leadership structure and style. Church at its core is a family. To stretch your line of thinking is to say to a parent ‘leave you child alone and let him find things out by himself, because I fear lest they become to dependant upon you.’ As a parent, my heart would be that I want my child to experience the best out of life. The relationship is at its core based upon the love that the father has for the child and vice versa. The same with the Churches, planting, raising, equipping, releasing are all characteristics of a healthy growing body. These five/four-fold giftings are gifts that Jesus has given to his church, based not on wanting people to be in bondage, but on wanting them to live in all the truth.
The reality of human nature is someone is always following someone else.


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2004/11/10 15:14Profile





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