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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : Authority and Submission by K.P. Yohannan

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Aprlshws
Member



Joined: 2010/3/25
Posts: 23


 Re: Serious

Could use some input on this please on government what if you truly believed someone was the Antichrist in a top government position and felt impelled to warn others that it is true is this not submitting to authority and because I'm very vocal about it.

 2010/12/6 6:37Profile
Areadymind
Member



Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re:

One general rule to go by all of your days. Obey all authority just so long as you are not disobeying God when you do so. We obey God, fundamentally, in our moral conduct. If an anti-christ is telling you to do something that you know Jesus would hate, then you are not to do it.

I will not overtly participate in a discussion where someone thinks someone is "the" anti-christ. Until I see someone slaughter a pig in a temple, I would not be convinced. Nor until I saw two witnesses breathing fire. However, that is just where my eschatology is.

Remember in 1 John it says that "Many anti-christs have gone out into the world." Our job is to test the spirits. I have heard way to many people say that "x" is "the." Just obey so long as you know you are not breaking any of God's laws. Also, be a little cautious about saying someone who is not "the" anti-christ, "is" to anyone as you run the risk of discrediting your faith to someone if you are wrong, and that person turns out to just be another pawn leading that direction. There have been many thousands of Anti-Christs in the world since the time of Christ.

Read early church history and you will see how lots of early believers balanced obeying these anti-christs in Rome, and how they did not obey them. The book of Acts gives you good examples of what to obey and what not to obey as well.

There is a really good audio book on here under the audio book section called, "The Martyr's of the Catacombs." Though I think the book is probably fiction, it is certainly based on how things went down for Roman believers. It is both inspirational and also a good tie in to this topic.

Here is the link to that audio book:

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=883

It is a fairly short book, I think I have listened to it like three or so times and it only took about six or seven hours to complete.


_________________
Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/12/6 10:01Profile









 Re: Who is the Head of every man?

Some of my ideas on the subject here.

Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,
22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
23 Moreover I call God as witness against my soul, that to spare you I came no more to Corinth.
"Not that we have dominion over your faith, but are fellow workers for your joy; for by faith you stand.".........................2Corinthians 1.

Firstly the concept of authority in the body always came from a position below, not above, as "The Pastor", or "Leader" is seen as a CEO, or Master of Ceremonies. Jesus said; [ at the last supper, just hours before His crucifixion..] The Shepherds knew that the saints stood by their OWN faith, not theirs.

[The Disciples Argue About Greatness]
24 Now there was also a dispute among them, as to which of them should be considered the greatest.

25 And He said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and those who exercise authority over them are called ‘benefactors.’

26 But not so among you; on the contrary, he who is greatest among you, let him be as the younger, and he who governs as he who serves

. 27 For who is greater, he who sits at the table, or he who serves? Is it not he who sits at the table? Yet I am among you as the One who serves."

Is the spirit of leadership one that sees itself on top, dictating the flow of interactions? ..or below, as a servant to the interactions, displaying the Spirit of Christ? No man is to have a dominion over the faith of another. A true Pastor [shepherd] will edify, and serve, and will not seek to benefit from his position of authority, but help others find the joy of submitting to the Lordship of Christ.

There is no such thing as a singular Pastor with "elders" in the New testament. There was always a body of elders, plural, that were in mutual submission to one another. The function of this authority of the body of elders was to:

1.] Feed the body of Christ.[local]*
2.] Protect the body of Christ. [local]*
3.]Manifest the Lordship of Christ Jesus in each and every situation. [ The bond of Peace from the Prince of Peace ]
*{ there were some instances of extra-local ministries; generally apostolic}

Let us not forget that the true Authority in the church must be Jesus Himself. The Elders see to it that the Holy Spirit in the church is not quenched; that the body edifies it self in love, and is well fed and protected. They are always plural and equal. [The ONLY place one man was identified as the singular authority, was a heretic called Diotrephes in 3John.] When you see one man ruling, usually with an hierarchy of underlings, you see error, according to the New Testament.

Are we to submit to those who have the rule over us, out of the virtue of being ordained Shepherds? Yes, for our own good...but are these men dictators of their own doctrines and ideas?..and should we submit to that?

Of course not. Being in authority does not mean that others submit to your ideas and thinking. If the larger issues , the primary doctrines of Christ...The blood, the new birth, the resurrection, and the Lordship of Jesus are violated in spirit, then Yes, this must be confronted. Even the great Peter, the chief Jewish apostle, had erroneous doctrines and ideas, and tried to dictate them to others.
Galatians 2
11 When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.

12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.

13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray"...

Was Paul rebellious? was he submitting? The point is, our first and last submission must be to the TRUTH, and the TRUTH is a person....God himself. This and only this is where true faith is born.

They are not Hired, Paid Professional ministries ; the one man Pastor, is not to be found in the New Testament, as are those who demand to make a living upon the back of the church. Jesus accepted support, as did Paul, but did not demand it. Read Acts 20 to see Paul's heart about being a Father, who worked day and night to support himself and the men with him in the mission at Ephesus.

Also, this must be said. The part of sermonindex addressed here is the Forum part. Let's look at it as such. It is not a church....it is more an interactive Opinion/Editorial site, ...[OP/ED ]a forum where many issues may be discussed.

As I see it, Greg and Paul and HmmHmm MUST maintain the bonds of Peace, and things MUST be done decently and in order. There Must be civility, and a sense of mutual honor and deference; and with an open forum, open to everyone in the WORLD with computer access.

Well...do you think that there may be the demonic and immature that would be used to bring harm, confusion and strife? SI has proven to be one of the best run Christian sites on the web.

But, it is not a church. You really do not get to test the fruit of anyone here. You do not know them, and their love, or lack of it, their pride, or lack of it, or their perceptions of themselves.


[maybe a few do, who may get together...]...but generally, SI forum is a world of ideas, and opinions...and people have PERSONA'S...Ideas about themselves, sometimes perceived through an attitude of self importance separated from real function .

It is a web site...with typed ideas and letters addressing the issue at hand; or posting ideas and letters of perceived relevance. It is Christian, and as I said, must be regulated and filtered or as the rest of earth left alone, will degenerate into chaos.

This is where the authority of the moderators come in. There has to be differing opinions....it's not about intellectual or ideological conformity, IS IT? It shouldn't be. We all differ in some ways, in our thinking and perception of the truth, and the church.

It's kind of like an interactive cyber bible college, and the forums are the OP/ED class, where we can interact. I think it is wonderful, and generally well run, with few exceptions. Authority and submission must be put in perspective.

It is always manifested in a Godly way with Fruit; even the holy fruit of humility, love, graciousness etc., and the shepherd heart. It is much different than the CEO of a business, or the warden of a prison.

Freedom to disagree is the mark of liberty...and we are ALL equal brothers and sisters...EQUAL...and we all have a ministry...and input...in the true church......and we are ALL honored equally also.

There must be order and the edification of the Holy Spirit, or what good is anything here? Remember though, this is not the real world, where your ideas about yourself are confronted by reality. Have you learned to Love with God. I'm learning, at best.

If you want to find out how much growth, how much faith you really possess, go and give it away, one on one. All of the New Testament reeks of this truth, from Jesus, Phillip, Stephan, Paul, and all of the apostles. Don't shelter yourself behind a pulpit, or a book, or a keyboard.

Try the local jail, or skid row, where you can give the Jesus that is you away. Do it alone; just you, and then you can gauge how much life is really coming from you. Have you ever led anyone to Jesus? ..seen Jesus heal through you, one on one? Brought comfort to the mourning, the broken hearted, in a manifest way? Cast out devils to the tormented?

This is what Jesus said for all of us to do...and to make real disciples. I've sat in the ivory towers, and have crashed down a time or two. It was good for me....but the greatest thing in my life has been to submit to the Authority that has transformed me, however so little, to become a son of God, and do these things. [ I fail, too.]

We must look a authority and submission in these terms, or in my opinion, we are missing the intent of our Creator. The Kingdom is His, and do not give your crown away by thinking that another must run it.

He is highly capable Himself. The question may be, do you want to save your perceptions of yourself and your way and life, or do you want to lose them, unto Him? This is the idea of authority and submission.


 2010/12/6 13:02
Areadymind
Member



Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re:

Ack, Tom and I both just noticed that the only time I have ever discussed the issue of Anti-Christ on this forum was my 666th post. Little bit creepy.


_________________
Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/12/6 14:39Profile









 Re: Authority and Submission by K.P. Yohannan


Hi Areadymind,

You've said a couple of things upon which I would like to comment. I hope that's okay.

Quote:
If you think that there are people in error within the leadership the bible tells you very clearly not to rebuke an elder, however there is nothing that says that you cannot privately submit your concerns to them in humility.

Is this really what the New Testament states? Here are my reasons for suggesting it is not quite as simple as you made out.

There seems to be an assumption that an 'elder' cannot be 'wrong'. Yet, this is not what many of us have experienced. I agree, of course, that ideally eldership is submitted to Christ - living in the Spirit - causing no desire for 'rebuking', by flock-members. Yet what Paul said here, acknowledged there may be a need to speak to an elder, and took into account the difference in age between Timothy and that person.

1 Timothy 5:1 Rebuke not an elder, but intreat [him] as a father; [and] the younger men as brethren;

1 Timothy 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.

I am grateful Paul included this, as if an elder is behaving immorally or blasphemously, or committing offences against brethren, sisters, or civil law, certainly they should be stopped. No-one should excuse them from the requirement to be 'irreproachable'.

This sounds similar to Jesus' teaching beginning in Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

A great deal of Jesus teaching used the word 'brother' or 'brethren'. There should be no difference between us, in this respect, as Christians.

Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.


This last verse is quite serious. It seems a Jew would know how to behave towards a 'heathen man' and 'a publican'. These days, we don't like to go to this extreme of obeying Him, perhaps. There is a tendancy to 'stay friends' without having clarified the terms, or, to not stay friends but without having tried to bring about reconciliation. It seems to be a minefield that Christians have trouble negotiating. Yet the strong implication is that these are 'spiritual' matters, as you pointed out.

Peter, also, wrote:

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

I put it to you, that 'many shall follow their pernicious ways', suggests false brethern may be holding a position of authority or power, which attracts such a response. We do need to be very careful who we believe and how we follow.

Quote:
To publicly question, and to sarcastically vituperate the authorities of SI, or anywhere for that matter, is probably going to be a reflection of how you treat all authority in your life. As a result, God will never give you any authority anywhere in the body of Christ. Any authority you may have will be that which is obtained out of rebellion and carnality, and no matter how doctrinally correct of an individual you may be, you will reap the fruit which you have sown. When I say "authority in the body of Christ," I do not mean authority in a worldly sense. I mean authority to speak to issues, authority that is spiritual, and not authority that is carnal or worldly. The church is not the military, nor is it a corporation. So please do not assume that my words mean something other than what would apply in a Godly sense.

I note your confession of a tendancy to sarcasm, yet removing it from the above paragraph seems to make a sweeping generalisation not warranted by scripture.

There are many different kinds of question in the Bible. Yes, some are used for dramatic, or ironic, or satirical, or rhetorical effect, and probably we can all work out which these are. But there are many other questions from God to man, from man to God, and between men, which are addressed for the most part with a childlike honesty, or, an appreciation on God's side of the difficulty man has in grasping His thought without His help.

I can remember only two, though there may be more, when a question was treated as a challenge to the word of God.

Matthew 21:23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority? 24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.

Matthew 21:27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

Luke 1:18 And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years. 19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings. 20 And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.


I just wanted to share these thoughts. I hope they are not interpreted as a challenge to legitimate authority in God, as that would not be my intention.

 2010/12/6 15:48
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1994
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

MrBillPro said:
"Oracio said:
I see my brothers and sisters who are under the clergy-laity structure as victims who are hindered and held captive to traditions and systems of men.
________________________________________________

In Love, I would say that is a very broad statement,how can "we" possibly know how God is using a person or persons in Church? In our eyes, they may look like they are being held captive, but we also must remember, Gods timing from our timing, is totally different. Is it possible, he has someone in the Church for maybe 30 years or more, that may look like there spinning their wheels, or in your words, being held captive, but God is just not finished with them yet?. You know, I have always had a issue with Christians trying to figure out God, please be very, very careful about what you might see, because your watching from the flesh, while God is working in the spirit, statements like the one above, "could" undermine "GODS" work in the Church.
God Bless
Brother Bill"

Brother, I think you may have misunderstood what I meant in the quote you pointed out. I did not mean to say that every Christian under the clergy-laity structure is "spinning their wheels" as you say. What I meant was that the clergy-laity structure hinders and restricts God's people from coming into the fullness of the freedom that is in Christ. I would be a fool to say that God is not working in the clergy-laity stucture. I'm just saying its not His best.

With regard to the original post by Greg, I think I misunderstood the motive behind it. I thought it was directed toward those of us who disagree with the clergy-laity structure.
But it seems to me now that it was meant to be an admonition concerning this website and forum.
In that regard, I completely understand the need for the moderators to be very cautious and restrictive in some ways. I see this site and forum as much different than a church setting, as BrotherTom pointed out.


_________________
Oracio

 2010/12/6 18:03Profile
Areadymind
Member



Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re: Alive

I will respond Alive, but it may be a while.


_________________
Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/12/6 23:27Profile





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