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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : Authority and Submission by K.P. Yohannan

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PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

I really appreciate your post Alreadymind. I appreciate also the spirit in which it was written.

If you think about it, we are all under some form of authority, whether it be spiritual or governmental. The reason we find it so natural to despise submission to this authority is due to the wretched adamic pull in all of us which endeavors to place "self" above all else in the universe.

In the physical, we submit to governmental authorities because the repurcussions for not doing so is immediate. We pay taxes (in the United States) not because we want to, but because of the IRS getting involved and making our lives miserable if we don't. The natural man therefore complies (albeit grudgingly) because of a natural threat. The spiritual man, however, submits and pays his taxes because God's Word instructs us to pay our taxes. There is a huge difference between the natural man and the spiritual; the rebellion in the natural man to not pay taxes is never mortified but rather caged by the threat of the governmental sword. The spiritual man, however, actually puts his adamic non-submissive nature to death by the Holy Spirit because he has God's word to stand upon. If God decrees that we should pay taxes to Caesar, it is easy to submit if you love Him more than money and are willing to call upon His grace for empowerment to obey.

What am I getting at. The natural forum member (including myself and the other mods - we are only men) here is often driven by his or her nature to post articles and thoughts and fellowship with other believers. But this highway we travel here also has a govenmental authority over it, regulating the "speed limit" so to speak, for the safety of other passengers. When a police officer pulls a person over, it is usually because some safety rule was violated: illegal lane change, excessive speed, running a red light, failure to yield, etc. There are reasons these laws are in place, even if the motorist is young and doesn't quite understand what the big deal is.

Most people slow down when they see a police officer; this is not due to the mortification of their rebellion to traffic laws, but out of fear of the reprisal if pulled over. True submission is going the speed limit even when there is no cop, not because of reprisals but because it is the law that God put on the roads through man.

When we are in here, if we always keep in mind that the authority here is not of man but God's own precepts for forum etiquette to benefit everyone's safety, we will find it a joy to submit. It is only when we question, "Has God truly said.." where we arouse the flesh by thinking for ourselves in an effort to elevate our own assertions. This is where we begin to get into trouble, and if it is traced back to its genesis, we always find unmortified pride as the culprit. The offender will not submit to the law, because the drive to promote self temporarily outweighs the fear of reprisal.

If we seek God for empowerment to submit, He will immediately give us wisdom, strength, and peace. Submission to authority is so very near to God's heart I believe: it was the fulcrum of Satan's fall from heaven, Man's expulsion from the garden, and Christ's acceptance of the Crucifixion. Those who will not submit, have an internal missfire which will eventually bleed out and bring death to themsevles and everything they touch, whereas those who submit in the spirit ultimately bring abundant life to themsevles and others.


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Paul Frederick West

 2010/12/5 12:36Profile
learn
Member



Joined: 2008/7/24
Posts: 613


 Re:

I believe the key to authority/submission including how we post is remembering the bible verses that
teaches us how we should conduct ourselves, how we are suppose to think, how we should help our brethen not to fall for false beliefs etc. That's my 2 cents.


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geraldine

 2010/12/5 12:59Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3187
Texas

 Re:

Oracio said:
I see my brothers and sisters who are under the clergy-laity structure as victims who are hindered and held captive to traditions and systems of men.
________________________________________________

In Love, I would say that is a very broad statement,how can "we" possibly know how God is using a person or persons in Church? In our eyes, they may look like they are being held captive, but we also must remember, Gods timing from our timing, is totally different. Is it possible, he has someone in the Church for maybe 30 years or more, that may look like there spinning their wheels, or in your words, being held captive, but God is just not finished with them yet?. You know, I have always had a issue with Christians trying to figure out God, please be very, very careful about what you might see, because your watching from the flesh, while God is working in the spirit, statements like the one above, "could" undermine "GODS" work in the Church.
God Bless
Brother Bill


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Mr. Bill

 2010/12/5 13:04Profile









 Re: Authority and Submission by K.P. Yohannan

Quote:
This is a subject with incredible, potential problems and difficulties. The Bible teaches very strongly about obeying authorities over us. The entire kingdom of God is meant to function in an orderly manner under God’s plan of authority.

But

there is an extreme teaching on submission to leaders in authority, wives to husbands, children to parents, and political or religious leaders to others that can be

dangerous, unless we balance it with the fact that each individual must know that he is also responsible to God, His law and His Word.

The balance must be kept between submission and individual guidance.



I have the books by Brother Yohannan and respect him and appreciate that he has warned us here in this excerpt of the "dangers" of not maintaining a balance.

These are perilous times that we are living in.

Could anyone ever count the number of TV ministers, radio personalities, fellowships- such as house churches or any "church" for that matter, etc 'ministries'?
On the internet as well, we've all seen those claiming to be prophets or apostles or whatever they claim for themselves and all seem to have a following.
I take Brother Yohannan's warning seriously.

If even "deacons" must be "first Proved" (1Tim 3:10) and be of sound doctrine and a good spirit and not found in immorality, not full of themselves and so forth, then how much more those who desire to have The Body of Christ submit to them. No one should 'desire' That in the first place, because "leaders are called to be servants, who wash feet".

The Apostle's calling consisted of - First - spreading the Gospel - Secondly, watching over the Body, that each fellowship's doctrine remain Pure and that there would be no immorality in the church.

This, from Paul, is how we are to judge who we are to submit to. Doctrine and moral purity.

Paul, John, Peter or any other true apostle would only rebuke each church they wrote to (or excommunicate a member) for unsound doctrine or immorality.

Some of us remember many abuses of power, in the history of The Church and we are seeing now, more than ever, since the Internet was birthed, the increase of self-proclaimed ministers - or whatever they proclaim themselves to be - just by purchasing a URL.

The Apostle Paul - having written the Pastoral Epistles, has set our best example of true authority from GOD, Himself and Jesus warned us enough times as well of being ever so careful that we are not following false apostles, prophets, and so on.

I do have a Pastor btw and call him "Admiral". I love him dearly because of his humility over his strength & position. He is very much like David Wilkerson, for which I am truly thankful, filled with respect and I Bless GOD for knowing the true from the counterfeit because of his humility and kindness --- yet he would be the first to say - "Follow GOD - Trust His Spirit - because 'any' man can fall and take many down with him."


Many will come in His Name...

 2010/12/5 13:12









 Re:

Oh, I meant to add the reason I call my pastor "Admiral".

Because, well, this part I have never told him, but as he came down a hallway toward me one day, a few years ago, I had a "vision" (for the lack of a better word) - seeing him in "sll white", and it came from my mouth without my own thinking "Good Morning Admiral", so I've greeted him that way ever since....

but - the LORD showed me shortly after 'why' I had that 'vision'.

Because a leader of a fellow-SHIP 'can be' the one who 'keeps' the "ship" - either getting it/them Home to safety or sinking the whole of it.




Off-topic - I feel to recommend the book "Valley of Vision" - Puritan's Prayers. Can be read in part at OldPaths.



Edit: Correction - 'The Valley of Vision' excerpts are at OldLandmarks.

 2010/12/5 13:42
Areadymind
Member



Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re: Paul

Quote:
Most people slow down when they see a police officer; this is not due to the mortification of their rebellion to traffic laws, but out of fear of the reprisal if pulled over. True submission is going the speed limit even when there is no cop, not because of reprisals but because it is the law that God put on the roads through man.



Amen. This is integrity at its core. This is total mortification. Great analogy.

Another good example of how we view and respond to authority could be as follows:

I go to a friend, or a brother and sister's house to enjoy some hospitality and fellowship. The first thing I do when I go into that home is that I look to see if there are shoes in a pile in the entry way. Usually if I see that, it means they don't want people walking in their home with shoes on. How I respond to that pile of shoes will speak volumes about either, my humility, or my pride. Either, I will be sensitive to this families authority (because I am coming under their roof) and I will take off my shoes, or I will pretend I did not see it, and walk right in.

If you come into a forum, and you see a pile of shoes on the floor, take your shoes off too. It is only wisdom. It does not matter how much you disagree or agree with the value of it.

Here is another question I ask myself every time I write on this forum, and it is not even a rule they have stated. "If my pastor's were to read what I wrote, would they say Amen? Or would they have words with me?" If they would be riled, or misrepresented by my words, there may be a chance that Jesus, or the moderators here would not be too happy either.


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Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/12/5 19:06Profile
Areadymind
Member



Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re: One last thing

At the risk of "being pedantic," as philologos once said in another thread, there is one more sermon on here that speaks to these issues so well. It is "The Way of Cain," by Zac Poonen.

I can honestly say that this sermon changed my life. It was not just some sermon I nodded my head to and said some collegiate pious comment about. It rocked my world, it revealed the root of Cain in me. It broke me of these kinds of attitudes.

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=8162&commentView=itemComments

I thank God from the bottom of my heart for this. I go back and listen to it every now and then just to see if I am getting it still. May God bless richly anyone whom has ears to hear...


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Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/12/5 19:16Profile









 Re:


I'm not quite sure how far we can take the "living room" analogy with the "Fellowshiping of The Body of Christ".

I knew of some house churches that different friends were invited to.

They too were the type who loved peace and believed in being, not only polite guests but very loving as well.

Upon entering the house, they witnessed abuse of the others there. What were they to do in a case such as that? And they being timid folks as well.

I believe our only way to picture Any type 'fellowship' is by our Only Rule Book. There is no other analogy on earth that fits His rules for the true gathering of the Saints.
For every situation that arises - there is ample Scripture.

Jesus Himself would be (and was) considered rude I believe, in some households.

I'm praying that we care more about WWJD? than what anyone else thinks. That would be revival to me. I pray that way.



 2010/12/5 19:23
Areadymind
Member



Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re:

You may be right, analogies are always a poor substitute for the word of God. It is why I do not use them often.


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Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/12/5 19:28Profile
MeriBeth
Member



Joined: 2010/1/8
Posts: 11
Atlanta

 Re:

I listen to this one ( The way of Cain) a lot too. Great Sermon!!!

Zac Poonen and Leonard Ravenhill speak a lot about church elders. Sure makes a world of difference when they are the most humble godly men in the church. When they are submitting to Jesus through the Holy Spirit ... the church will worship like Able not Cain. Not that I have seen that personally but I do know what it looks like when the most powerful and rich are picked and the church worships like Cain. Jude tells of this!

When you have men of honor it is so easy to submit. They earn your trust and submission by walking in the Truth. I had the greatest father in the world. Today in my 40's I would jump to the moon if he said jump. I sure wish we had more men like this as pastors and elders. We just need a massive baptism of fire in the church!


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Meri Beth Morris

 2010/12/5 20:20Profile





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