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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : The First Judgement Comes.

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Joined: 2010/9/8
Posts: 3
Las Vegas


It was unbelievers that said they were drunk. Do you refer to the things of God as a non believer do? Do we see things an unbeliever does? Only a spiritual man can compare spiritual to natural correctly. A natural man, as in the book of acts mentioned, will compare incorrectly more so. You speak of your own authority when you say we have to compare spiritual things to natural things. I stand correct if you can show me otherwise from scripture.

 2010/12/10 13:10Profile

Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1851
Whittier CA USA


Erendel, I understand what you are saying and I agree that we need to be careful on how we speak of the Holy Spirit's operations in us.
However, after considering Ephesians 5:18 some more, it seems that a sound interpretation of it would force us to take Paul as saying in essence, "instead of being drunk and filled with wine, be filled with the Spirit of God." I found Matthew Henry's take on that passage edifying. He states:

"1. He warns against the sin of drunkenness: And be not drunk with wine, v.18. This was a sin very frequent among the heathens; and particularly on occasion of the festivals of their gods, and more especially in their Bacchanalia: then they were wont to inflame themselves with wine, and all
manner of inordinate lusts were consequent upon it: and therefore the apostle adds, wherein, or in which drunkenness, is excess. The word asotia may signify luxury or dissoluteness; and it is certain that drunkenness is
no friend to chastity and purity of life, but it virtually contains all manner of extravagance, and transports men into gross sensuality and vile enormities. Note, Drunkenness is a sin that seldom goes alone, but often
involves men in other instances of guilt: it is a sin very provoking to God, and a great hindrance to the spiritual life. The apostle may mean all such intemperance and disorder as are opposite to the sober and prudent demeanor he intends in his advice, to redeem the time. 2. Instead of being filled with wine, he exhorts them to be filled with the Spirit. Those who are full of drink are not likely to be full of the Spirit; and therefore this duty is opposed to the former sin. The meaning of the exhortation is that men should labour for a plentiful measure of the graces
of the Spirit, that would fill their souls with great joy, strength, and courage, which things sensual men expect their wine should inspire them with. We cannot be guilty of any excess in our endeavours after these: nay, we ought not to be satisfied with a little of the Spirit, but to be aspiring after measures, so as to be filled with the Spirit. Now by this means we shall come to understand what the will of the Lord is; for the Spirit of God is given as a Spirit of wisdom and of understanding. And because those who are filled with the Spirit will be carried out in acts of devotion, and all the proper expressions of it, therefore the apostle exhorts, 3. To sing unto the Lord, v. 19. Drunkards are wont to sing obscene and profane songs. The heathens, in their Bacchanalia, used to sing hymns to Bacchus, whom they called the god of wine. Thus they expressed their joy; but the joy of Christians should express itself in songs of praise to their God. In these they should speak to themselves in their assemblies and meetings together, for mutual edification. By psalms may be meant David's psalms, or such composures as were fitly sung with musical instruments. By hymns may be meant such others as were confined to matter of praise, as those of Zacharias, Simeon, etc. Spiritual songs may contain a greater variety of matter, doctrinal, prophetical, historical, etc. Observe here, (1.) The singing of psalms and hymns is a gospel ordinance: it is an ordinance of God, and appointed for his glory. (2.) Though Christianity is an enemy to profane mirth, yet it encourages joy and gladness, and the proper expressions of these in the professors of
it. God's people have reason to rejoice, and to sing for joy. They are to sing and to make melody in their hearts; not only with their voices, but with inward affection, and then their doing this will be as delightful and acceptable to God as music is to us: and it must be with a design to please him, and to promote his glory, that we do this; and then it will be done to the Lord.4. Thanksgiving is another duty that the apostle exhorts to, v. 20. We are appointed to sing psalms, etc., for the expression of our thankfulness to God; but, though we are not always singing, we should never want a disposition for this duty, as we never want matter for it. We must continue it throughout the whole course of our lives; and we should give thanks for
all things; not only for spiritual blessings enjoyed, and eternal ones expected (for what of the former we have in hand, and for what of the other we have in hope), but for temporal mercies too; not only for our comforts, but also for our sanctified afflictions; not only for what immediately concerns ourselves, but for the instances of God's kindness and favour to others also. It is our duty in every thing to give thanks unto God and the Father, to God as the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ and our Father in him, in whose name we are to offer up all our prayers, and
praises, and spiritual services, that they may be acceptable to God."(Matthew Henry)

Oracio Sandoval

 2010/12/10 14:53Profile

Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 221
Brumley Missouri

 Re: comparing spiritual to natural things...

Here is what I meant by this.

A non- Christian will compare what they see to things in this world.

A Christian will compare the things of the spirit also to the things of this world as well. The reason for this is because we do not have words that will correctly identifiy spiritual things.

When the Holy SPirit descended on Jesus, the holy spirit was compared to a dove. That is what he look like to natural man. Even though we are christians and spiritual we are still in this natural world and we still use the same language as non-christians. Unless we walk around all day and speak in tongues. then whom will understand us?

When Moses was commanded by God to build the temple and the ark, God gave specific directions on what materials to use and what it was to look like when completed. Why, because they were representations of things in the spiritual realm.

Moses was making duplicates of the things that are in Heaven. Somewhere in Revelations the ark of the covenant is in heaven. How can it be unless God raptured the ark?
No, it has always been in heaven. What is on earth is a copy of the origanol.

is this making any sense? This is the best I can describe it.

Now when I witness to non-christians I use things in the natural to compare things that are spiritual because they can not comprehend spiritual things.

Being born again, Jesus used this term to Nicodemous. Again it is a comparison of something spiritual in the natural.

Although I do not talk about "now when you get born again and recieve the Holy Spirit you may appear to others as being drunk..." thats foolishness.

William Cato

 2010/12/11 11:06Profile

Joined: 2009/3/17
Posts: 308
Central Alberta, Canada


1 Peter 4:17 (New King James Version)

For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

No one is going to escape what is coming - which is the threshing floor. Interesting thing about wheat, the chaff(hull) and the grain are beaten together until the chaff falls away from the grain and the wind blows it away leaving the wheat berry on the threshing floor all by itself, which comes first before it can be gathered into the barn (rapture).

I have learned that If there is one thing that grieves the Holy Spirit it is drunkenness.

Everywhere in scripture when I read about this, it is always a sin, and those who indulge the flesh in this practice shall never inherit the kingdom of God, at least that is what the bible says:

"Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
1 Corinthians 6:10

Why would anyone EVER want to refer to the beautiful anointing of the Holy Spirit of God as "Getting Drunk"?

Why refer to something that is "so holy" and "so pure" and clean and good and refer to it as in the carnal, fleshly, unrepented, as a sinful indulgence of the flesh as "getting drunk"? Doesn't anyone see the wrong in this?

It is truly wonderful to be filled with the Holy Spirit, but this is very holy and beautiful and not carnal like 'getting drunk'. I love the presence of the Holy Spirit when He overshadows me; I love and worship God in my soul in those moments like I can never describe it here with words.

This is the first judgment I believe that comes, which falls on what is called the church - Christianity (all of the many thousands of denominations of it). Oh that we would all have a heart after God.

The Church received power for Godly living and testimony on Pentecost - It is through the righteousness and grace of God that the free gift of the Holy Spirit is given, even to us, who through obedience to the faith in Christ Jesus are made righteous by His shed that He took away our sins, and in the absence of sin the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled; therefore, the Holy Spirit could come. It was not until Jesus Christ had ascended to the Father, after His resurrection, that the Holy Ghost could be given - which is the promise of the free gift.

And this is why the Holy Ghost could be given freely to us:

"Where there is no sin, the Law of God cannot condemn, but is fulfilled."

Jesus Christ, with His own blood entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption for us. It was not until sin was removed (through the cross of Christ), and the righteous requirements of the law were fulfilled (absence of sin), that the Holy Spirit could come, who wrote the laws of God on our hearts rather than on tablets of stone...even as it is written "I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."

It is a common statement with some of Christianity today that we have to live with the "sinful nature" in this life as long as we live.

This is a lie, God has given us power over sin, which is in the Blood of the Lamb!

Some teachers of Christianity today take the Apostle Paul's writing out of context when he stated:

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. Romans 7:18-20

...they read this as though we have to live with no power for Godly living.

But the Apostle was referring to life "before" the Holy Ghost was given.

They miss what he says next in his line of thought, rationale and teaching which is:

For what the law could not do(written law on tablets of stone), in that it was weak through the flesh (because we could not keep the law through the flesh), God (did) (by)sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh (took away the sins - so that power for holy living could be given by the Holy Ghost in us):

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us (absence of sin through the blood of Christ), who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:3-4

For if you live according to the flesh (For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do) you will die; but if by the (Holy)Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body (power for righteous and holy living), you will live. Rom 8:13 (parenthesis emphasis above is mine)

And this is why, I believe, judgment comes. ...because we have neglected so great a salvation...which is the God life in us through His Holy Spirit.

But I cannot refer to the judgment of God without referring to His great mercies for humanity (of whom I am the largest recipient)...because as it is written God is not willing that any should perish.

And I am not talking about sinless perfection (in this life) here (we still have to deal with Eph 6:12 on a daily basis which is NOT the sinful nature), but they will be taken out of the way soon enough as per: Revelation 12:7-10

... but I am referring to the way into the Holiest of All, the very presence of God (in us) - the Divine life, which God in his mercy has freely given to us (the embryo or seed of God in us)the God life, the new creation, the new birth.

And this is the judgment - a certain fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. - to deny or refuse the sanctifying, life changing work of the Holy Ghost in us. (Having a form of Godliness, but denying the power for Godly living - no God life in them)

We really need a true revival of the Holy Ghost...and we need a functioning body (Ephesians 4:11-13)


 2010/12/11 12:42Profile

Joined: 2009/3/17
Posts: 308
Central Alberta, Canada

 Re: Not sinful drunkenness, but Holy Communion and completion.

Someone (From Israel) responded to my post on this topic on another forum and said concerning the Holy Ghost:

I was recently leading worship at an intercessors meeting and wow, the PRESENCE arrived SO heavily, that I could barely stand or sing. The people were first almost staggering under the glory of His presence and then went on their faces. It was an amazing two hours like that. We could not stand before His HOLINESS!

The POWER of His presence!

The GREATNESS of His Glory!

All we could do was REPENT!

Revelation 1:17

"When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last."

I agree.

Their is a difference between the genuine and the counterfeit.


Amen to that!


 2010/12/13 0:14Profile

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