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poet
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Joined: 2007/2/16
Posts: 231
Longview WA

 Re: Tithing - Part IV - The Council at Jerusalem

it's refreshing to see someone use good exegisis when laying out how they come to a conclusion.
For years I was taught that tithing was a requirement, but when studying scriptures it's actually taught we are not under bondage, and if we feel were under bondage we stop allowing ourselves to be cheerful givers.
I stopped tithing to my church when the pastor went running amuck in his teaching, and again at a different church.
What I discovered is when I did this, the Lord would place someone on my mind who was in need, or someone would call me for help, and presto I had some extra money to give them help. I would always say this is not a loan but a gift from the lord.
i also didnt feel like I had this yolk around my neck every month to make sure I did my duty and tithed.
instead I get opportunities to help people in need.
Its very liberating, and yes I feel led to help our pastor when I sence a need.
And usually when this happens it ends up being more than the tithe would have been. not always, but I don't keep track anymore either.


_________________
howard

 2010/12/1 15:50Profile









 Re:

Quote:
what do you make of jesus receiving tithes?



Are you saying that you are of the opinion that Melchizedek was Jesus? Melchizedek was not Jesus. Genesis is very clear who Melchizedek was... he was an earthly king. Apparently a very powerful one at that.

This is a notion propogated by those who are mainly attempting to prove that tithing is for the church today. I never hear anyone promoting this error in any other context. It's amazing how far we will stretch scripture to fit our favorite "doctrines".

Sorry to call it error, brother. I dont mean to offend. But I do truly believe it is an error based on a misunderstanding of Hebrews 7.

Jesus never received tithes from anybody. Yes, He paid tithes because He was a Jew and was living under the OT Law. Not just living under it, He was fulfilling it... so that we would not have to! Praise God.

Some say we should follow Jesus' example and live just as He did, observing all of the OT law, etc. Paul called those people legalists.

The law... and everything associated with it... was fulfilled. All of it. Including the tithe. If we say that Christians are obligated to hold to even ONE aspect of the law, then we are bound to ALL of it.

I'll take freedom!

Awaiting Pilgrim's reply to this.

 2010/12/1 15:56









 Re:

Good question:

This goes to the heart of the matter. This is not so much about tithing as it is about setting people free to enjoy the reality of Jesus Christ. Wrong doctrines nullify the finished work of Christ in a Believer's life and prevent him/her from really entering into spiritual union with Him. You can't be truly "In Christ" when you are observing laws, no matter how innocent they may be. Read on and you will understand.

Tithing has nothing to do with the New Covenant way of living. It is a carnal religious doctrine that keeps God's people from really knowing and experiencing what "In Christ" means. "In Christ" is our new way of living.

The statement that tithing was “after the Law” is not true. I already covered that in Part II of my Tithing series. But let's explore Heb 7, more.

Part of the error comes from not considering when the Old Covenant ended and when the New Covenant began. When Jesus referred to tithing, the Law was still in effect. It didn't end until he died on the cross. Jesus was living during the Law and speaking to people who were under the Law.


Actually, Hebrews 7 has nothing to do with tithing in the New Covenant. Tithing is only mentioned as part of a comparison between the Melchizedek and the Levitical priesthood to show us how far superior a priest Jesus is.

The book of Hebrews proclaims the superiority of the New Covenant. It says we have a better hope (7:19), better covenant (7:22)(8:6), better promises (8:6), better sacrifices (9:23), better substance (10:34), better country (11:16), better resurrection (11:35), and better outcome of our faith (11:40).

It shows that Jesus has a better name (1:4) and better blood (12:24), and that we now have a better cleansing of sin, a better conscience (9:14), and a better relationship with God, entering the true holy place in the heavenly realm.

Verses above, are all from Hebrews.

Hebrews chapter 7 is showing us that Jesus is a greater priest than any priest in the Old Covenant. The Holy Spirit proves to us first that Melchizedek was a greater priest than any priest in the Old Covenant.

Let's look at Abraham and the tithe that he gave. What are some characteristics of this tithe and was it habitual.

1. First of all, there is no scriptural evidence that God told him to give it.

2. God's original promise and eventual covenant with Abraham was based on faith, alone. Nothing to do with tithing.

3. No where in Scripture did God instruct Abraham to give a tenth of the spoils to Melchizedek.

4. No where in Scripture did God ever instruct Abraham to give any tithe.

5. Abraham was already incredibly rich and he was not made rich by giving a tithe to Melchizedek.

6. When Abraham gave a tithe to Melchizedek, it was the only time that he ever gave a tithe.

7. The scriptures do not mention anywhere that Abraham ever gave another tithe the rest of his life.

8. The tithe that Abraham gave cost him nothing. It was on the spoils of the battle. It was not part of his personal possessions or the increase of his flocks and herds.

9. God's fulfillment to Abraham did not include a condition of tithing. God made Abraham rich in fulfillment of his promise alone, without any kind of tithing or giving.

10. Christian's have said that Abraham's tithe to Melchizedek is God's pattern for Christians in the New Covenant. There is no where in Scripture where this is stated.

11. Tithing had absolutely nothing to do with God fulfilling his promise to Abraham to make him a great nation, bless him, make his name great and that through him all the nations of the earth would be blessed. It was never mentioned except with Melchizedek and Abraham chose to do that only out of his spoils. Read

Abraham believed what God said and acted on it. There were no works involved.

12. God made Abraham rich on the basis of faith alone. Tithing was not the reason for Abraham's prosperity.

Folks, from Genesis to Revelation, God has never been in debt to man and He never will. Our relationship with Him is based on faith alone. We approach Him and love Him, on faith alone. And He rewards us and blesses us on Faith alone. He causes our soul to be fat (prosperous). His grace is far beyond any natural comprehension we can attain.

When you read the Bible you realize that information about the most important things in God's economy are not held back from us. They are revealed. Anything as important as an eternal, universal law of tithing would have been clearly communicated and not left to us to fumble about and figure out.

Tithers argue that Jesus is both king and priest and is therefore due a tithe. Jesus is certainly worthy of a tithe and much more, but his kingdom and priesthood are not based on the tithe. The tithe has no place in it. Everything about tithing is inferior to New Covenant life in Christ.

Jesus' call to us is not a 10% commitment. His call is absolute abandonment and commitment of all things to Him.

Jesus requires us to forsake all, to give all, and to use all for the accomplishment of his purposes.

Interestingly, He gives (entrusts) all things to us, and to jointly work with Him in His service and the Holy Spirit is now the leader in all matters and not the tithe, or any law or rules that come from man. And if the Holy Spirit is the leader in all matters, where does that leave the clergy?

That's another story.

I would encourage everyone to read all of Hebrews 7, slowly. This brother stopped at vs 10, but the best was yet to come.

 2010/12/1 17:11
RainMan
Member



Joined: 2010/4/21
Posts: 227


 Re:

Please don't make any assumptions. I do not believe we are in bondage and i will share a a few scriptures for those still in bondage if they haven't been already shared but this may lead to contention. I mentioned Hebrews 7 so we would have an exegetical basis before looking at 9. lol i am not trying to use it in the same context as your average crook would to scam believers into bondage. shame on you for stereotypically implying this before you even heard what i had to say lol

1. Melchizedek was a typology that illustrates the priestly ministry of Christ (King priest) Melchizedek does not to be a incarnation of Christ for us to learn from the typology . Remember Christ has been made a high priest for ever under the [order] of Melchizedek (we will come back to melky in a sec)

2. The exegetical point of Hebrews 7 is their is a change in priesthood. Once we understand this concept we can follow with the rest of chapters 8 & 9

Hebrews 9


8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.


[the majority of ordinances of service and worship circumcission, tithing i.e applied up until the reformation of the law]

15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

3. The death of Christ ushered in a reformation to the law (dispensation if you like) many will not accept this even though its in the bible Hebrews 9:10

4. Gods law is eternal. While we are not under obligation and compulsion to give 10%. The underlying reason for tithing was to take care of the Gods house and the poor. The lord still wants us to care for the poor. But from a loving heart as opposed to a legalistic obligation.


5. Back to the priesthood of melky. While there has been a change or reformation. We are still under obligation to love. Love is a higher ground than tithing and will cost us more.


We are missing the point if we simply say we dont have to tithe, because the new testament standard of sharing all and giving all to Christ is much more than 10% and will cost more

I will stop here to allow feedback but here are a few scriptures for those who are still in bondage to tithing.


Ephesians 2

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.


Romans 3

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Galatians

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.



[we are redeemed from the curse of the law. If you try to fulfill one requirement of the mosiac law then you better fulfill them all]


colosians 2

13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you[d] alive with Christ. *****He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.***

It is clear to me from those scriptures that Christ removed the hostility between us and God. This was both sin and the requirements of the law and they were nailed to the cross.

We are only obliged to love God and each other anything else is questionable.

The confusion about ordidances come from two sources the greeed of men trying to build earthly empires. And the blurry confusion of those who cannot see what christ has done for us with his death on the cross. We all know he has removed our sins, but are we willing to accpet he has removed the regulations of the written code(law) that was histility between us and God and thus is our reconcilation with him?


Be blessed



 2010/12/2 7:40Profile









 Re:

Rainman,

Reading your post it looks like we have no disagreement.

"We are missing the point if we simply say we dont have to tithe, because the new testament standard of sharing all and giving all to Christ is much more than 10% and will cost more"

Amen! We are making the same point. I think we have been making the point that we are under no laws but the law of love and that law demands ALL. Total Commitment.

But, the law of love and walking in the Spirit is regulated by the Holy Spirit and not man.

Being "In Christ" is light years away from Being "In Man", which is the sad condition of most of "Christendom".

But as sad as that truth is, it is also pretty much in line with the reality of God's Word. Narrow is the way...

Jesus is Head of ALL of His Church and does not share His Headship with any man. He calls the shots.

And I see you believe this.

 2010/12/2 13:54





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