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staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1449


 Re:

()Notice Jesus said, "You should have practiced the latter (justice, mercy and faithfulness), without neglecting the former (tithing)." The fathers argued, and rightful so, that Jesus word ends the discussion. Since Jesus said not to neglect the former—being tithing—then no believer should neglect tithing. I wholeheartedly agree!)

Hi Jesus was correct of course in saying that Jews should have not neglected tithing because it was their obligation under the law at the time of speaking.(the law had not been fulfilled)However after Pentecost that changed because of Jesus Death and resurrection.I think its interesting to the best of my knowledge that the first example of giving after the birth of the Church was not tithing.
My point being I suppose is that this portion of scripture can not be used to argue for tithing after Pentecost because as both Jesus and his Jewish audience were talking about obligations under the law.
Respectfully Staff

 2010/11/29 19:59Profile
learjet
Member



Joined: 2010/4/19
Posts: 447


 Re: Tithing is not a New testament practice.

Well I'll take a shot at this one although not in a conventional sense.

What did Jesus teach?

Matthew 28:16-20 says:

“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to OBEY EVERYTHING THAT I HAVE COMMANDED YOU. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Did He COMMAND the tithe? No.

He mentioned to the Pharisees that it was right for them to bring the tithe however, the context of this teaching is during a time before His death and resurrection which means the law was still a factor in His response. Since He fulfilled the law and gave us a better covenant, the law in no longer relevant because we live by a higher standard.

How did He send out people?

Luke 10:1-12 says:

1 After this the Lord appointed 72 others. He sent them out two by two ahead of him. They went to every town and place where he was about to go.
2 He told them, "The harvest is huge, but the workers are few. So ask the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into his harvest field.

3 "Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves. 4 Do not take a purse or bag or sandals. And don't greet anyone on the road.

5 "When you enter a house, first say, 'May this house be blessed with peace.' 6 If someone there loves peace, your blessing of peace will rest on him. If not, it will return to you. 7 Stay in that house. Eat and drink anything they give you. Workers are worthy of their pay. Do not move around from house to house.

8 "When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is set down in front of you. 9 Heal the sick people who are there. Tell them, 'God's kingdom is near you.'

10 "But what if you enter a town and are not welcomed? Then go into its streets and say, 11 'We wipe off even the dust of your town that sticks to our feet. We do it to show that God isn't pleased with you. But here is what you can be sure of. God's kingdom is near.'

12 "I tell you this. On judgment day it will be easier for Sodom than for that town."

Notice he tells them to take nothing with them OR to demand payment, although they are worthy of pay.

This contradicts the teaching of paying tithes, the Old Covenant was 'bring this tithe, bring that tithe' but in the New Covenant He demands more, He wants you. My problem with the teaching related to paying a tithe in this dispensation is it has become a win-win situation for pastors who love money and 'converts' who don't want to do anything for God. The lover of money demands the tithe (I'm not assuming that EVERY PERSON who teaches tithing is of this spirit so please save your fingers :-) ) so that he can 'finance the gospel' and the tither pays the tithe so he doesn't have to spread the gospel (or feel conviction about not doing so). Win-win...

Additionally, anyone who teaches paying tithes must go to the Old Covenant to do so. If this was a cornerstone of the New Covenant (as many preach) more would have written about it, but this is not so. To assume that this practice continues on in the New Covenant is not truth (in my opinion) because if we take this practice forward we must take all of the law forward, including the sacrifice, the temple, and the whole ball of wax, this is consistent with Paul's position in the Epistles because the Old Testament 'believers of YHWH' were not free to choose which parts of the law we should obey and discard.

I can't see that unlimited funding would help to preach the gospel to all nations although I do see a need for bible translation etc. However, IMHO I can see that a sold out church WOULD fulfill the Great Commission because they lack nothing, they are already in the highways and byways.

In the end it still comes down to Jesus wanting us.

People will always have an excuse for being cheap (lovers of money) that's the nature of Adam, but through God's grace we can overcome that nature.

I have to agree with the above folks, there are 2 requirements: give cheerfully, give secretly.

Thank you very much for listening to me!

In Christ,
Earl J

 2010/11/29 20:15Profile
JB1968
Member



Joined: 2009/8/31
Posts: 416
Ohio USA

 Re:

Good, this is getting alot of feedback.
No one said that if you tithe, you will be wealthy. Since when did the death and resurrection of Christ throw out the OT? Strict dispensationalists would say this I know. Maybe the 10 commandments should be pitched too. Maybe Abraham (which preceded the law) was wrong to give tithes.
Concerning being "led" to give, some DO use that excuse NOT to give, but they have plenty of money and credit cards to buy things for themselves. No wonder some cannot afford to tithe. What about the widow who gave all she had? Oh, that was before Christ died and rose again.
The spirit of the law is better than the letter. According to Jer. and Eze., when God writes His law on our hearts, we have the "want to" to please the Lord.


_________________
James

 2010/11/29 20:33Profile









 Re:

You know, I have agreed with everyone up to this point about tithing NOT being a New Testament command, but you know, just as I got to typing this, I have a change of mind on the issue.

Consider this verse:

Luke 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

This is more than tithing folks, it's called Love in Action.

We see this in the early Church how that many gave into the Church for the distribution of the wealth that was collected for those that had nothing within the Church.

Any poor person looking in that day would want to join themselves to that body, wouldn't you? There is no want for bread, all had plenty.

There is no set limit as to what we should give, BUT, and that is a big BUT, when we really love, love gives out. And that can be on any level of resources that we have on hand, including our selves.

 2010/11/29 20:39
JB1968
Member



Joined: 2009/8/31
Posts: 416
Ohio USA

 Re:

Amen snuf! God help us to invest ourselves in others. Jesus said in Matthew 6:3 "But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:".


_________________
James

 2010/11/29 20:47Profile
MyVeryHeart
Member



Joined: 2010/8/30
Posts: 449
Paradise, California

 Re:

Good thoughts Murray,

Since our "tithes" go to our high priest in heaven, Jesus,the money itself cannot go to him. But treasure in Heaven can.

Luke 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Another passage worth consideration is Luke 16:9

"And I say to you, make friends for yourselves by means of the wealth of unrighteousness, so that when it fails, they will receive you into the eternal dwellings."

The actual money will pass away, but the spiritual treasure in heaven will not. And it all is for Jesus, for his Glory,so that he receives what he deserves.

All our money, and possesions, yes, our very lives, are to be laid upon the altar to Jesus to use as he pleases.


_________________
Travis

 2010/11/29 20:51Profile









 Re:

We had a visitor one time to our house fellowship and he was from Northern California. Got saved in the 70's and self-admitted that he was backslidden and had a gluttony problem for 35 of his 40 years with the Lord. He said that he was delivered, lost 200lbs and his last 5 years have been "tremendous" with the Lord. He moved to Israel and lives about 20 minutes north of Jerusalem.

Not sure how he found our fellowship but he showed up one night and we welcomed him as we do all men. He ate and fellowshipped with us and then we later moved to the living room for continued fellowship, worship and whatever the Lord wanted to do.

Another brother in our fellowship, after sharing, asked our visitor if he would like to share what God is doing in Jerusalem. So, our visitor started sharing a little about his personal testimony (which I have mentioned) and really not much about what he is doing in Jerusalem or what the Lord is doing. But after about 30 minutes of talking he veered off into HRM teaching. I am familiar with Hebrew Roots Movement buzz words and teachings because I had a dear friend go off into it. But, I let him continue to see where he was going. He prophesied over two of our teenagers (trying to establish some preeminence amongst us and impress the innocent) and then he spoke to my wife and I. He was half prophesying about us and like Jimp, mentioned Ananias and Sapphira and the context was that we are holding back from the Body and should not hold back from the Body. Hmmm, interesting, I thought. Well, he dropped very obvious "hints" after that, regarding how he was living by faith and trusting God. In other words, we now had a fund raiser in our midst. He did not fool me at all. Very clever. Beat you down, make you feel bad then collect.

I told my wife later, that Satan was trying to use him in the meeting to marginalize me and keep me quiet. This man did not know about me, but the enemy did. And to be sure, I am absolutely nothing. But after 33 years I do have a little discernment and I am a grown man with children and I am not going to let someone malign the Word of God and take advantage of His sheep. So, his attempt to marginalize me and hijack our meeting did not work. I could not let him go anymore on the HRM teaching. We have a custom in our house church that you don't bring a teaching (especially your first visit) without addressing the brothers in the fellowship first about it. Share all you want, but don't teach if you are a stranger to our group. Anyway, I confronted him gently yet firmly about his teaching and without going to much into it, I told him that it was getting late and we all had to go home. I started to get up and he actually told me to sit down that he was not finished yet. Such audacity. I nevertheless insisted and we broke up the meeting. It was a Thursday evening. Many of us had work the next day. I heard from him the next day from an email he sent me. He sent me his website and encouraged me to subscribe to his newsletter.

I have also run into this same accusation (Ananias and Sapphira) from others and one thing that I have noticed is that they are usually not very well off, not working, won't work or "living by faith". I don't know Jimp's station in life at all, but it really does not matter (I do however wonder why he would use Ananias and Sapphira against brothers). But what matters is that this is a very sad judgment leveled at brothers and sisters.

Another post I saw below was by someone whose handle looks like he is a Reverend. I don't know if he is a Reverend or not. Rev_Enue looks like reverend to me, though. At any rate I have also had experiences with Reverends who think their congregations are stingy and cheapskates. It is a horrible characterization of the brethren. But when you are dependent on men and feigning dependence on God, what is in your heart will eventually come out. I am glad all this is being revealed for all to see. I said in another post that once you "touch" the mammon, the attitude of the heart comes out. I experienced this face to face with another "Pastor". He called people cheapskates and stingy but when I mentioned to him that the church takes in a lot of money and we should sow it back into the saints lives, the look on his face was one of rage towards me. Man!! What a moment that was.

The third post is about a brother who tithes all the time and is blessed. I am glad that the brother is blessed. But, I want him to know that God is not a debtor to any man. If you think you are blessed because you are giving money to God you are sadly mistaken.

I had a dear friend in the institutional church that told me that he tithed every Sunday for 14 years and was very disappointed. First of all, that is a long time to do that with such perfection and not miss a Sunday. Pretty impressive, I must admit. I asked him why he was disappointed and he told me that he was disappointed that several things that he was praying for have never materialized. He eventually got on staff at his church (something that was a big goal of his) but he was not living like the other staff members who seemed to be so blessed. He was not in the neighborhood that he wanted to be in, and of course his house was not the kind of house he wanted to live in, his cars were old and his job and salary were meager. He was able to have a house and a job and put food on the table, but he was expecting more in exchange for his tithe.

I could see several things: First, this "perfect record" of tithing, built up pride in him, thinking that he was quite spiritual. Yet, for all his spirituality, he became angry at God for not coming through with the GOODS. Kind of like Rev_Enue in that respect. He always gave 10%, and it never occurred to him that God really owns 100%. So, if God ever wanted anymore, well, that was just not in his doctrine. So, if he heard a voice that encouraged him to give more, he would think it was the devil. His doctrine was 10% and no more. Sad isn't it.

These three profiles I have run into and every one of them idict God and speak evil against His very nature.

This is man's religious system and this is the fruit that man's religious system produces.

Give cheerfully as you purpose in your heart and give in secret and don't ever let anyone compel you to do anything that you have not purposed in your heart. That is manipulation.



 2010/11/29 20:51
learjet
Member



Joined: 2010/4/19
Posts: 447


 Re:

Quote:
Since when did the death and resurrection of Christ throw out the OT?



With all due respect brother I didn't see anyone here saying that we should throw out the whole Old Covenant, that's a straw man.

For the record I used to be a strict tither ((Pharisee) please don't project this on yourself, I'm talking about me) but I'm not that way anymore, I used to feel guilty every week when I couldn't make my tithe because of the condemnation that the law brings. I'm not talking about not being able to give because of extravagant living (heck, the wife and kids and I were already eating Ramen noodles), I'm talking either paying the rent or tithing. If I cant take care of my wife at kids in a Christlike manner then I have no business exporting my faith elsewhere.

Jesus said the The Father caused it to rain on the righteous and the unrighteous, are the unrighteous financially secure because they tithe? No.

Looking at people through the lens of their financial position is a cancer because only the rich could be considered 'faithful', which is the exact opposite of Jesus' teachings.

Quote:
Oh, that was before Christ died and rose again. The spirit of the law is better than the letter



Your sarcasm is caustic brother, check your heart.

With Love,
Earl J

 2010/11/29 20:57Profile









 Re: pilgrim777

pilgrim777

I am not a reverend Rev_Enue is my handle. It is a play on words that I invented
to characterize the philosophy of so many modern day preachers in North America.

 2010/11/29 20:59









 Re:

Boy that's a relief!! I thought you were a Reverend calling the sheep, CHEAPSKATES. So, you are just a Sheep calling the Sheep CHEAPSKATES.

Thanks!

 2010/11/29 21:06





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