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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The State of Israel

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Quote:
And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is[f] my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

Thank you brother for bringing the full context of the scriptures to the thread.

I've chosen this portion of scripture for now to look at.

Now, I know that many of us have laboured to bring this truth out and believe me, I scratch my head many a time because I know what it's saying and what it's not saying. We have all agreed at one point that the "ALL" means all. But when we compare with other scriptures we have to come to a logical conclusion that Paul had to have speaking of the elect of Israel, not the whole of Israel.

Why? Because of Romans 9:27 Isaiah also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

This is not a future work, this work was finished at Calvary, and Israel here is the remnant, not everyone.

So the All of Israel is the remnant.

Please please please tell me if anyone else sees that?

 2010/11/28 19:29









 Re:

A very hot topic indeed. I agree with most of what's been posted but must disagree with the "timing" and the implication that 1948 was anything more but the "covenant with death".

Since we can all share our feelings peacefully here, I felt a freedom to hit reply for this subject.

#1 - Yes, Israel & Jerusalem belong to GOD.

Our Messiah will return to the Mt. of Olives.

But, the majority of the Scriptures posted in the replies are pointing to the day of His Return and 'that' is when He will regather the scattered - because they'll be scattered once again when war and persecution breaks out against them.

If you look at who and what "made Israel a nation in 1948" you will find that it was no other than the Balfour letter/agreement of Mr. Rothschild and then the U.N. Declaration - and it's important to read all that surrounds that UN declaration. All the UN Resolutions that were written in connection with that Declaration. Such as making Jerusalem the International City .... thus preparing it for the seat of antiChrist one day. The Vatican owning a good portion of Jerusalem, etc..
That's why I believe it was Israel's covenant with death, as it is written.
All the prophets and Jesus spoke of the horror that will come to Israel before His Return and what He will have to rescue her from. So again, I contend that these Scriptures of their "wonderful regathering" will not be accomplished until Messiah - the True King returns.
Until then, as a whole, Israel as it is now is sinning horribly - as far as what they are allowing morally. And they (those who are not the true Remnant) will believe the antiChrist is their Messiah.
1948's actions were solely to claim Israel, to counterfeit Biblical Prophecy, so as to deceive both Christian and a portion of the Jewish peoples. But when they & we see the "abomination" that Daniel and Jesus spoke of - their eyes will be opened. The true remnant's that is.

GOD foreknew what man would do and wrote it all in His Book but the days of the glory of Israel will never come nor the majority of the Scriptures mentioned on this thread fulfilled until "That Day".

Pray that none of us, Jew or Gentiles will be deceived ... for if it were possible, as you know - even the elect much watch that they not be. Amen.


 2010/11/28 19:39
davidc
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Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
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 Re:

Chris, you say
"Now, it is clear in Romans chapter 9 that salvation is found ONLY in Christ -- and not in a physical or genealogical heritage. So, in this sense, believers are the Israel of faith"

We must remember that the inheritance of the land for Israel will be given when Christ returns. They, the Jews will see Him whom they pierced. They will believe in Him on seeing Him, like Thomas:

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. John 20:27-29 (KJV)

For us, His church, we are blessed, not having seen Him, but believed on Him. This is why the church could not be born until Christ had ascended on High and sent us the Holy Spirit.

We are His heavenly people having no home or hope in this world, in the land of Israel, or our own nation. Our eyes should not be on the events happening in the world around us, but on Christ expecting His coming to take us to Himself.

But God has not left us ignorant, but has made known unto us the mystery of His will:
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Eph 1:9-10 (KJV)

That dispensation, or age of the fullness of times is when Christ returns with us His heavenly saints to His earthly ones, so gathering together all things in Christ.

David


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david

 2010/11/28 19:57Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Now some of them have 'land' again, they are intent upon building another Temple. Sounds sadly like history repeating itself.



Of course it is. Hebrew prophecy is pattern. Another temple is necessary in order for the son of perdition to be revealed. Should this be surprising?

 2010/11/28 20:08
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Ultimately, I think that this discussion is not nearly as important as some would make it out to be.

After all, I think that these things are clear:

1. Gentiles who have met the Messiah are the "Israel of God" BY FAITH.

2. The "by faith" part is most important in terms of our eternal condition.

3. There is no "free pass" into Eternity with Christ based upon your physical genealogical heritage. The only people who make it -- whether genealogically a Jew or Gentile -- are those whose names are written in the Book of Life.

Still, and on a personal level, I don't believe that the physical genealogical heritage of the chosen people has ever "taken back" by God. That was the purpose of the statement in Romans 11:28-29 about the call of God being "irrevocable." God's promises to the genealogical Jews are still binding -- even though we now have a New Covenant that is by faith.


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Christopher

 2010/11/28 20:22Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Ultimately, I think that this discussion is not nearly as important as some would make it out to be.

It is vitally important. Either the prophets are true or they are liars. Fulfilment is important. Our whole lives revolve around truth.

Yes this is a hot topic, but you know, if anyone gets heated over this, I question their spirit.

But I have presented this "ALL" of Israel a few times in other threads as being the elect of God, the remnant, and I can't get one soul to agree with how the scripture presents that.

I find this statement offensive. Not that I am incensed or anything like that, I think the Apostles would be offended.
Quote:
God's promises to the genealogical Jews are still binding -- even though we now have a New Covenant that is by faith.

The New Testament included the Jews, as it was to the Jew first.

We were not there when the Lord added to the Church DAILY, "such as should be saved", but Peter would enter this forum and say:

Were you there when we were filled with power from on high and I stood up by the power of the Holy Ghost and preached a sobering message of what my audience the Jews had done to their Messiah by condemning Him and crucifying Him to a tree?

Were you there when for Joy unspeakable and full of glory when THOUSANDS of male Jews that day dropped their heads in total surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ?

Were you there when a few weeks later when me and John went up to the Temple, there I saw a lame man begging, and I said silver and gold have I none but such as I have in the name of Jesus rise and walk. And the power of God snapped those ankles back together and caused that man to walk and we stood up again to preach to the THOUSANDS of Jews that were there that day surrounding the Temple, surely the Deliverer had come to save Jacob from his sins.

Such as should be saved!

 2010/11/28 21:02
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi Snuf...

Quote:

It is vitally important. Either the prophets are true or they are liars. Fulfilment is important. Our whole lives revolve around truth.


Maybe I am wrong, but I think that you misunderstood what I was saying.

I meant to point out that the underlying principles found in Scripture are true no matter what people suppose or opine regarding the modern nation of Israel, the spiritual condition of physically genealogical Jews or the status of the promise that God made thousands of years ago. Those three points that I pointed out in my last post are, I think, agreed upon by most believers.

I do agree that there is a danger of straying from the simple principles toward a direction that is divisive or even ethnically, nationally or politically anti-Semitic. That is why we need to stick to the undeniable spiritual principles for any of our proclamations. Jews need Jesus. Gentiles need Jesus. People who don't know what they are need Jesus. ALL people -- Jew AND Gentile -- need Christ Jesus. There is no excuse to reject Jesus as the Christ.

Yet, it is my opinion that the promises and covenant of God to the physical, genealogical Jews is irrevocable. They are still His chosen people upon this Earth -- even though we are spiritual Jews by faith.

I have always thought of it like this: I have a home that I operate here on the Earth. I have natural responsibilities to that home (whether I am saved or not). As a Christian, I realize that this home is just a temporary dwelling and that my ultimate home is Eternal with Christ Jesus. However, I don't sell my house and move to Heaven (not yet). Until I breathe my last breath (or until Christ returns), I have responsibilities to take care of my family, provide for them and prepare a place for them.

Maybe I am getting carried away. In my mind, it is much more simple than that.


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Christopher

 2010/11/28 22:17Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
I believe Paul said there is 'no Jew or gentile' in Christ.

So my question is, is there any scriptural basis for viewing the modern state of Israel as any different from any other state in the world system (with respect to favor of God etc)?



The position of SermonIndex and "most" of the biblical preachers on the website is that in the book of Romans it speaks of us being ingrafted into the promises of the jews. We therefore must be humble and fear (tremble with reverent awe). thinking we are of a higher position or of better quality then the former "people of God".

The jewish people will be "re-grafted" into the vine via the church therefore they will also humble themselves in that way but let us not be high-minded.

I believe we should "biblically" reconize there is a jewish people that God looks as seperate then all the Gentiles (all other people groups and nations).

secondly we need to realize that God has an end-time special purpose for the jewish people after the times of the gentiles is finished.

So we should therefore be excited that there is a physical representation of the jewish people in the forming of a "Israel country state". We should not be against this but glory that God is true to His word to keep these people in the end.

You either side on God with this or you side with others who hate the jews, ie muslims, hitlers, communists, satanists, and every other wicked group that hates the formation of the state, they want everyone to believe the jewish people are non-existentent.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2010/11/28 22:26Profile
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 Re:


Remember: Jesus is the king of the jews. We serve a jewish king. All the apostles where jewish. And may we humbly say we are now a part of these promises of God given to us in the New Covenant. And the Jew becomes finally our litmus test also to see the genuiness of our walk with Christ. They expose the unreality of our profession if they are not provoked.

Hence in the end we will accomplish God's eternal purpose in Christ if we are in Him in such a way that provokes the Jew. I personally am excited to engage anyone of this nature and have seen God do amazing things without even the word spoken just the way I clasped onto my bible which to them represented I loved these scriptures more then any other possession on earth and that provoked them. For all Jews love the Name of their God and their scriptures highly and such was a way God used this weak servant to draw some Jews To Christ the true Messiah.

Oh brothers and Sisters let us humbly enter into God's program and read his whole New Covenant and not take out parts and emphasis others more then some.

I exhort everyone to read through the entire book of Romans carefully and not come to a different conclusion.




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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2010/11/28 22:32Profile









 Re: The State of Israel

God's Hand in the 6 Day War

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wMIq6X4zi4&feature=related

Jerusalem of Gold
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GHAeA-O_jw

or subtitled for non Hebrew speakers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlIJOAZ1pak&feature=related


Ana HaShem (PS116:16)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMUYP8sVbHk

"O LORD, I am your servant;
I am your servant, the son of your maidservant.
You have loosed my bonds".

amen. in Jesus' love, neil



 2010/11/28 22:43





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