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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Andrew Strom Renounces the Prophetic Movement & the Recent Whitedove Conference in Kansas City ...

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Spitfire
Member



Joined: 2004/8/3
Posts: 633


 Re:

You know, I read through this entire thread for the first time today. Something was coming up in me as I read through and then finally at the end, Doug asks the question

Quote:
I guess my question now that we have exposed the problem is, what next? What are we to do with sad state of the church?


The thing that keeps coming up in me is "finger pointing". How can we stand in the gap for this "sad state of the church" when we keep looking at it as us against them? We see their problem. You know what God has shown me? We are them. They are us. We can't pray for them as them. We must own them. We can't separate ourselves from them like they have leprosy and we don't. If they have leprosy, we have leprosy. The church is sick, alright, and we are it. I say, let's become them before God. Let's stand before God in their place. Or should I say, let's lay before God in their stead? All her sin is cast on me, for she must and shall go free.

 2004/11/5 20:56Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Lars,

Quote:
"Below, the Ravenhill item quoted and requested."

Thanks.


Quote:
"Since when did the role of a prophet change into what we now see in the so called prophetic movement? 1994?"

No.


Quote:
"Since when did a difference occur between the Old Testament and the New as to the prophetic dimesion and the prophetic office?"

Perhaps when most other things about how God related to humanity drastically changed- the revelation of Christ and Pentecost (the Spirit poured out upon a group, not just an individual).


Quote:
"Since when did the standards of a man of God change from Christ-likeness to fortune-telling and dancing around a golden calf?"

I don't think they did.


Quote:
"The prophetic plumb line: Should Jesus have done it this way."

Could you expand on why you think this is the plumbline?


Quote:
"The prophetic mandate: Bringing a straying leadership and a hurting people back to the Lamb and to the Lord."

Could you expand on why you think this is [i]the[/i] prophetic mandate? Why do you distinguish "the Lamb" from "the Lord"?

 2004/11/5 21:03Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Spitfire,

You wrote:
"You know what God has shown me? We are them. They are us. We can't pray for them as them. We must own them. We can't separate ourselves from them like they have leprosy and we don't. If they have leprosy, we have leprosy. The church is sick, alright, and we are it."

Can't say that I agree with this [i]specifically[/i] as to how this might relate to the controversial things mentioned on this thread. In fact, you might consider me as part of "them." But as a general principle for the Body of Christ, this is just beatiful and profound. Thanks.

 2004/11/5 21:12Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

"Holy Angels who are not flying around blowing on peoples finger tips, that's not silly, that's sick."



Not to mention insulting! If an angel were flying around blowing on your finger tips, you would not need to be told so! Such an idea is an insult to the angels as well, and we should not revile them in such a way. Angels are "ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation" (Heb 1:14) They are God's ministers, being a "flame of fire." (Heb 1:7). All these angelic encounters many in the prophetic movement have seem to only bring glory to men and angels, with no glory going towards God.

None of these fat cows of Bashan have need of any angel to come deliver them, as if they were tossed to the bottom of a well as Sundar Singh was, they would simply pull out their cell phone and call for somebody to come lift them out.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2004/11/5 23:12Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Boy this is never easy with this guy :-P
(and I bet Todd is saying the same thing!)

I love you Todd and I know you know that, hopefully.

Perhaps I go to far in my zeal. Perhaps it's the re-opening of old wounds. Perhaps it's the lacking ability to articulate what I really want to say...

Quote:
Where do you find it in Scripture that there needs to be scriptural precedence?


Maybe that's the wrong term.
If you want to take the 'angel' bit for instance. What I have found in all my reading about angels in scripture is that this is not a characteristic of them. It seems that they usually strike fear into humans upon first contact, which seems to be a reasonable expectation being that they are Holy.
I am no theologian, but this just gives me a sick feeling to hear these things, so maybe it's just me. But if the Word of God is authoritative and is our measuring rod at what point do we determine what is not of God and what is?
Wouldn't this mean that the Mormons are right then? Their burning in the bosom? It's not in the bible either...
Some of it has got to be common sense.
Maybe a better question to this is, why? Why would angels be blowing on peoples finger tips?
It just sounds ridiculous and demeaning and yes sickening, maybe I have a sensitive stomach.

Quote:
I wonder how silly David looked dancing in his underwear



And why was he dancing in the first place? Seems quite a reach to compare that with what was described. Also that was but a part of the whole in context of what he had written and he wasn't even blaming the dancers.

The "Spirit of scripture"...
The "Holy Spirit" is what I meant;

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

But perhaps a bad way of putting it.

I guess if you want to boil it all down it seems to be a lack of reverence in my opinion.

And I am sorry if it looks like so much finger pointing. It's not that at all, good grief who am I? I am nobody and I hate no one, not even Benny Hinn and the others that are of that mindset. I really had to deal with that at some point because I think I actually did begin to go in that direction until somewhere along the line the question came up awhile back and produced a gut check.

It is precisely because we are the Body of Christ that these things make me want to cry and scream and yes throw up. But for Gods sake are we to just sweep these things under the rug? Make concessions for every strange thing that comes along the pike?

Maybe my zeal has carried me into pride, I hope not may the Lord deal with me if it's so. There just seems to be this audacity and frivolousness and lack of realization of just Who it is we have to answer to. This idea that God is somehow down on our level that we can kid around and make light of these things in this way. He is the creator of the universe, a consuming fire, His wrath as well as His love. Mercy and grace, but He hates! God hates! He hates sin! Where is the awe? Where is the worship? From the heart?

He poured it all out on His Son ... for us? Frivolous, undeserving creatures...

I don't know where I am going with this now.
But this all once again did cause me to reflect back into where I have done the same thing, where I have been irreverent and careless. God forgive me. I don't know what the answer is, maybe we need to be humbled, maybe Andrew was right in his initial promptings that we need to repent.

But as to the rest of this I can see why many don't even go into it all it just seems to go nowhere...besides I am tired. I give up. Forgive me.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2004/11/5 23:51Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Dear King,

Saw your post after this latest drivel of mine.
Would you consider being an Aaron to me? I don't know how to talk... :-(


_________________
Mike Balog

 2004/11/5 23:55Profile
jouko
Member



Joined: 2003/10/9
Posts: 172
Ex-England colony of Australia

 Re:

Mike, maybe this is how you feel.

Ezr 9:3 And when I heard this thing, I rent my garment and my robe, and plucked off the hair of my head and of my beard, and sat down confounded.


Pro 30:5 Every word of God is tried: He is a shield unto them that take refuge in him.


_________________
Jouko Hakola

 2004/11/6 0:41Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Thanks Jouko,

Perfect.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2004/11/6 1:10Profile
lwpray
Member



Joined: 2003/6/22
Posts: 3318
Sweden

 Ministry of confrontation


A definition of sin and a separation from it is an absolute necessity.
A true prophet occupied with such definitions. He does not point fingers.

Thorough, thoughtful and truthful intercession is an absolute necessity.
It involves a price to be paid by mature Christians; the novice should not get involved because of the possibilities of counter-operations targeting the weak and vulnerable. The enemy has no scruples.

A ministry of confrontation and correction is an absolute necessity.
Interaction unto repentance goes on at certain levels, in certain settings.
This is a burden which few are able to carry. Take a look at my article “A Burden, the unwelcome necessity.”

This work must go on and on as the deception goes on and on.
A prophet, viewed by “Them”, cannot be corrected – a stance which makes it very difficult to reach happy endings.

Lars


_________________
Lars Widerberg

 2004/11/6 3:14Profile
lwpray
Member



Joined: 2003/6/22
Posts: 3318
Sweden

 Basic questions answered



My question:
"Since when did the role of a prophet change into what we now see in the so called prophetic movement? 1994?"
Todd’s answer: An emphatic “No”.

Comment: “Dr.” Bill Hamon states that the Prophetic movement began in 1980 – from his Prophets and prophetic movement. Hamon, and his followers produces a link between the Latter Rain-movement (!948), the Charismatics, the Faith churches and the latest items on the scene.
Many refer to 1994, to Toronto, as a road sign into this brand of the prophetic.
It is within this realm we find a thorough effort of re-defining the prophetic office with its rejection of holy living as a foundation for credibility.


_________________
Lars Widerberg

 2004/11/6 3:52Profile





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