Even the worship had a very "tribal" feel to it at times. And by Day Three they were doing dance items with just loud voodoo-style drums only - and leaping around in a frenzied circle making weird cries to the super-amplified beat. The feeling in the room was so oppressive and "pagan" during this
I was one of the members of the team confronting him.
If there is anything the Church needs to be warned about it would be this! Occult involvement is wildly unacceptable. That is idolatry. That is what the leaders were doing (among other things) in Ezekiel 8 when they were worshipping images. An image of jealousy appeared and God started pulling out in the coming chapters. The problem is that the messages get watered down (as Dave Wilkerson points out) because of the sin giving a false sense of the love of God in the services. Couple that with some talented musicians playing some moving music and the people mistake that for the anointing. Almost the whole atmosphere becomes false under those conditions.
The Sins of the Leaders are Leading Sins
Robert Wurtz II
| 2004/11/8 16:43||Profile|
"I was one of the members of the team confronting him."
And? What happened? Do you know how many people/groups probably try to confront these leaders on a regular basis? If they attempted to respond to all the critisizm, they probably wouldn't have time for anything else. Clearly they have no responsability to take time with you or to respond to your questions. Right? Did you have an appointment with him? Did you actually get to speak with him in person?
How did your team approach the situation and what happened? I am very curious now.
Also still curious about the supposed occult involvement.
| 2004/11/8 17:21||Profile|
"Occult involvement is wildly unacceptable. That is idolatry."
Yeah, and clearly those in question are well aware of that. In fact, I've noticed even more awareness concerning the occult in the ministries of some of those in question.
Case in point: Rick Joyner wrote a book about one aspect of the occult called "Overcoming Witchcraft."
Does that prove that they are not somehow involved in it? No, but it gives reason to look into any accusations deeper. If they are involved, it must be some kind of massive conspiracy and/or cover-up. And I doubt anything truly substantial and conclusive could be brought forth.
| 2004/11/8 17:41||Profile|
| A summary of ministry|
You have, obviously, not been able to read between the lines in my posts.
I have worked as a researcher and counsellor for some 25 years with the most complicated types of cases.
Our ministry, Intercessors Network, operates in more than 100 nations.
It is within this framework of international relations, including many churches and ministries of substantial validity and sobriety which we have formed this team.
Joyner, and others, have had the opportunity to listen and to react but have chosen not to.
The second part of Stroms writings on this subject, posted in another thread, provides a list of names which has been under scrutiny and confrontation during a long period, some of them for many years.
What can be revealed from this research and these gatherings is the general pattern of thinking, the seductive thinking, the mode of operation such as spiritistic techniques and then presenting the plumb line of Jesus Christ.
We do not make a show of our work to entertain minds who are bent for the fantastic. It would be to move in under a category of conduct together with the ones we are confronting.
| 2004/11/9 0:38||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
| Re: "Rambling, I am rambling 'round, I am rambling guy" ~ Steve Martin|
"This is NOT Christianity"
Correct, it's not... :-)
Whether I am 'right' or not or 'know' is besides the point, I am not even sure I know what I want for dinner, but I am hungry.
[b]Christianity[/b] \'kris-che-"a-ne-te\ n : the religion derived from Jesus Christ, based on the Bible as sacred scripture, and professed by Christians
(c)2000 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. All rights reserved
Hope you can pick up the inflection here. I am out of gas on all this...The point I am trying make Todd is that it is not our definitions, assumptions or hard and fast rules or opinions, but what God's word states that is all we have to go on. I am not concerned with being 'right' in the sense of "Aha! See! I have been trying to tell you..." Of course some things are secondary and the debates will be endless (Calvinism\Arminism). Nor is it 'authoritative' coming from this pea brain. And of course a lot of things are our opinions. This is a serious subject and though it hits particularly hard stemming from my own personal experience and still living with the residue that has effected my own loved ones, I certainly don't take myself that seriously, am just a spiritual misfit trying to grasp what is true and what the Lord might be happy to reveal, possibly be of some help.
But isn't there some room for emotion? Outrage? If anything that is what you are hearing from me, an emotional outburst..Right, wrong or indifferent.
Is everything analyzed to the 'T'? I am not knocking you and certainly don't expect you to agree with everything anybody says. What about the main issue here, the concern that much harm is being done, even if it isn't intentional?
I am sure that just as many that are involved in these things love the Lord as well but that doesn't mean that they can not be deceived, misled or even the possibility that they know full well what they are doing. I also realize the defensiveness of not wanting to hear what others may be saying. I reacted much in the same way at first. But as the questions began to gnaw at me it broke down the defense's and humbled me to stop and think, why are these people saying what they are saying? Is it an agenda? Or is it a real concern? Perhaps I need to find out. And strangely it wasn't the calm, cool and collected voices that got my attention but the more emotionally charged ones, thats neither here nor there nor a buttress to my own 'outrage', I think it just caused me to ponder why the voices against these things were so passionate.
I came into the Kingdom under a variety of circumstances. Was doing all kinds of sinful activity very well and was newly married to a wonderful women who had that precious presence about her but also was brought up under much of what is being discussed here as well as the Hinn's, Copelands, Hickey, etc. etc.
This was my initiation into Christianity. We were huge supporters of Benny Hinn and I was quite taken at first with what I perceived him to be. I really thought that he had Gods power within him and that when he touched people and they went flying or at the wave of his hand that rows of people were 'slain' that he was God's anointed prophet and hung on his every word. It also lent what I considered credibility to all those who were associated with him.
At one point we attended a conference for three days to hear the man of God. At one point during the night he suddenly stated, "The Holy Spirit is here!" "Quickly, line up...along the sides" Don't recall what else was said but I asked my wife, "What is going on?" There was a lot of confusion as people started moving about out of their chairs. The ushers had everybody line up along the sides of the conference room (It was at a hotel) [i]facing the wall[/i] which I didn't get at all. I held back as my wife was prodding me, "Come on". Something was wrong, there was a check in my spirit and I remember now that it seemed very Jim Jones like, that was what came to mind. I moved rather slowly towards the walls wondering about it all, but soon was able to suppress my concerns and go along with everyone else. The line was to receive the 'anointing' and be touched by Benny or his helpers. There was all kinds of the now usual things being said what is now realized to be manipulation (intentional or not) and recalled that at some point we were allowed to turn around away from the walls. My excitement rose when I realized I was gong to be standing in front of Rex Hubbard. He said something that I don't recall and with great anticipation waited for the 'touch' of the Holy Spirit to 'slay' me, he placed his hand on my forehand and with a slight shove...Nothing. Feeling now uncomfortable and not wanting to embarrass the man he gave a second little push and I just 'went with it' falling back into the arms of the catcher.
Now part of the deception was that I "pondered all these things in my heart" and recall actually lying to my wife, telling her later how great it all was being taken down by 'the power of God.' I didn't want to offend her, but it was the first of the red flags that didn't come back up for a long time afterwords. The whole conference was very creepy looking back on it, the outlandish pleas for money "The Lord is telling me that 5 of you are to give $1,000"...
A handful of prophecy's, the practical feeding frenzy at the merchandise table...
What does this all have to do with what is being discussed here? The original article brought back these and other memories that in a very similar way people are being misled and deceived. The credence given to these so called 'prophets' is dangerous and has been stated, there is spiritual, physical/emotional, financial fallout as a result.
It is [i]my opinion[/i] that this whole 'movement' is hogwash. How is it that we now have all these 'prophets' saying a multitude of things that cannot be verified by scripture [i]specifically[/i], and at best are extrapolations from them not to mention the fact that accuracy and accountability seems to be something altogether missing.
That is really besides the point. The question really is, "Has the Lord really said this?" The fact that this escapes those who promote and let the "Lord is telling me" or "The Lord is saying" come from their lips to their hearers is what I find frightening. The ease with which these things come forth without any serious consideration to the ramifications besides the astonishing and seemingly lack of realization that they are now speaking for GOD or so they think...It is just beyond me. I would be terrified to open my mouth and say those words unless I knew for a fact that what was about to come forth was indeed from the Lord God Himself. We may [i]think[/i] these things are from the Lord but to stand up and give them out to people, to our own brethren as statements...
I just don't see that any latitude is necessary for giving the benefit of the doubt when so much is at stake.
Now the flip side of this would be, am I now advocating the same thing by saying that this is "Not Christianity" or "There isn't angels flying about..."? I will continue to take my chances and warn about all of this. May the Lord deal with me accordingly. But the difference is I never said 'the Lord told me to say so".
The last couple of days have found me very agitated about all of this. It sent me into a very spiritually agitated state if I could put it that way. Very grievous over all of this, a crying on the inside... As much as I tried to force my mind to do otherwise it kept coming back to all of this. Prayed the Lord would relieve me from this burden, the confusion, the anguish of it all. Why this compelling to speak up when I don't even know how to articulate it correctly? Who am I Lord? I prayed. But added to that was the offense I was feeling I had given to Todd (If you are still with me here) in being perhaps to sharp or barbed in my comments, making him (you) look bad, that I had injured my brother. That really bothered me. Was I being prideful? Spiteful? Hateful? The sense of "you have gone to far" wouldn't escape me. It was hard to think clearly, my emotions had gotten the best of me and also felt I had grieved the Holy Spirit as even the normal, small sense of His presence had departed.
This morning things seem much more clearer and the Holy Spirit it does seem has restored me back to a place of peace and I hope I am now making a bit more sense. I again apologize for any offenses to you my brother and for all the murkiness of my earlier comments to you and anyone else following this rambling discourse.
There are many more here who's experience and knowledge of these things are better worth reading and I see now there is a part 2 to this original letter that has begun this whole discussion. I do pray that we all will pray about these things and am glad they are getting exposed to the Light even if they may be troublesome and the motives of those who are concerned are often misunderstood. It seems at the root the goal is restoration, I pray the Lord would lead us into it.
*Todd, the comments re: the 'common sense" definition...
Yes, just for clarification, wasn't trying to be derogatory.
May I add one more? This forum writing has it's own inherent problems sometimes, one of which inflection can be hard to detect, this has been floating through the recess's of the cranium as well, so a couple of quick thoughts;
Not every question posed is necessarily a barbed statement. Often it really is just a question.
Many of us are 'just lay people' and not especially educated in higher learning.
Patience is a virtue.
Emotions CAN get in the way...ahem...
Charity, love, compassion, mercy... absolutely, but compromise is not truth telling which I believe is what the Lord would have us to do.
We are still in the processing plant...
| 2004/11/9 9:50||Profile|
My excitement rose when I realized I was gong to be standing in front of Rex Hubbard.
Right here Bro. Mike, you put your finger right on it and didn't even know it. ;-)
Rex Humbard meets E. Ron. Hubbard. A deadly combination. It all began with Rex Humbard and the 750 foot tower in Akron, Ohio he did not count the cost to build. It is still standing as a mockery to the Church. I am told by those who lived near it that it is so well built that it cannot be brought down because the dynamite would destroy a lot of the surrounding area. In 1971, Rex Humbard began building the concrete tower, hoping that it would be the tallest tower in Ohio. It was originally planned to have an observation deck and a revolving restaurant at its peak. Humbard, plagued by financial disaster was unable to finish it.
Rex Humbard is deemed my many to be the father of modern day televangelism. I have met people just this year who attended his church. E. Ron. Hubbard is the founder of Dianetics or the Church of Scientology. i read where L. Ron Hubbard once said, "Why write for a penny a word when you can have your own religion?" The Church of Scientology is a very lucrative cult and it boils down to manipulating the people out of their money. I believe it was Rahman who stated that the preachers give the sugar and take the peoples money and the people pay for the sugar (something like that). This is exactly right. The time is now to cry loud and spare not. Devouring widows houses making pipe dream promises that never come to fruition. Controlling people through all sorts of manipulation. Teaching things they ought not for filthy lucre's sake. God have mercy!
Robert Wurtz II
| 2004/11/9 10:29||Profile|
"We are still in the processing plant..."
| 2004/11/9 10:33||Profile|