SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : "Seed"

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 Next Page )
PosterThread
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 "Seed"

I'm working through the word "seed" in the bible with respect to Abraham.

Galatians 3:16 says:
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

So Paul is saying the "seed" is not many, but one - Christ

This is referencing when God speaks to Abraham in Genesis:

Genesis 13:15
For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

Genesis 17:7
And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Genesis 17:8
And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.


If my interpretation is correct then the promise of the land was made to Abraham and Jesus? Or have I misunderstood this as it seems quite strange to me?

Does anyone else have an insight into this?


_________________
Mark Nash

 2010/11/9 6:38Profile
EverestoSama
Member



Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re: "Seed"

It's Jewish midrash. Paul and the disciples actually use midrash quite a bit in the New Testament. There is an initial fulfillment pointing towards a fuller fulfillment. The Jewish concept of prophecy was multiple fulfillments.

Here's a fascinating read on the subject.

http://www.moriel.org/articles/sermons/midrash.htm

 2010/11/9 7:09Profile









 Re: "Seed"


Hi Nasher,

Did you read Neil's post, after the Lord's revelation to him about the relationship of the covenants to one another? If not, this would be a good starting place.

Then read (please), the significance of the word 'virgin', in Genesis and Exodus, as expounded by Phil Goble in his introduction to the Orthodox Jewish Bible. This will play into your reading of Galatians and Romans 9 (at least).

When you open this link, the part you're looking for is on a rightside, in the middle, with Isa 7:14 being mentioned, specifically with respect to the importance of 'a sign'. By all means read the whole intro, but really you only need the two pages after Isa 7:14 on p vii, at http://www.afii.tv/.

With that in mind, Paul's reference to Isaac in Romans 9 assumes a significance which I would say has been lost to us completely. [Because of the many promised indicators of the Messiah down through history, which God had given by His word through His prophets, and re-iterated through some of the stories / parables told by Jesus, Jews who refused to believe that Messiah HAD COME, ought to have known God would not leave their generation unpunished (as Jesus also intimated).]

Remember there was no New Testament when the apostles were preaching. They proved who Christ was from the fulfilment of prophecy to which they could testify personally.

Lastly, there is a helpful study of Abraham in the first half of a sermon with an unlikely title 'Money and the New Move of God', by Esther Ibanga. She explains how influenced her doctrine used to be by a wrong focus on money, and that really 'the blessing of Abraham' was something else. You could probably stop listening when she gets to Galatians.

There is more to this, than simply understanding 'seed'.



I would also like to challenge the received nonsense in some people's thinking, that 'seed', in reference to Christ, is a reference to a male being born, or, to the 'male' portion of a fertilised ovum. There is not one of us alive, who has not come into being through also the seed of a woman. Furthermore, there is no truth in the notion that a child automatically takes its father's blood group. And lastly, it is the father's contribution which orders whether the child shall be a male or a female.

Thus, the promise to Eve, that HER 'seed' would ... etc, was not a scientific error on God's part. It is us who need to understand what He created, and what He meant. In the end, it was of Mary's (human) 'seed', from which the Messiah came forth.

 2010/11/9 7:17
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Quote:
It's Jewish midrash. Paul and the disciples actually use midrash quite a bit in the New Testament. There is an initial fulfillment pointing towards a fuller fulfillment. The Jewish concept of prophecy was multiple fulfillments.


I've just started reading the link you posted but thought I'd post this while doing so.
If the sentence in Galatians 3:16 (Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ) was Midrash (I've never heard of that before so excuse my ignorance) then it seems as though the seed would be many *and* one, as opposed to *not* many *but* one as the sentence says?


_________________
Mark Nash

 2010/11/9 8:16Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Another question while I think of it: The Galatians were Gentile Chrisitans, would they have known of Midrash?


_________________
Mark Nash

 2010/11/9 8:29Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Just read this in the link and was alarmed by it:

"Something went wrong in the early Church; it got away from its Jewish roots. And as more Gentiles became Christians, something that Paul (in Romans 11) warned should not happen, happened. People lost sight of the root."

I would have thought that Jesus was the root?
Also, the letter to the Galatians was written because Jewish Christians were trying to make the Gentile Christians follow the works of the law etc?

I don't want to digress from my original question, just alarmed at this.

I'll pause to give yourself and other a chance to respond.


_________________
Mark Nash

 2010/11/9 8:37Profile
EverestoSama
Member



Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re:

Well for one, they had Jews amongst their midst. And on the other hand, they were being taught by the same Jewish former pharisee who heavily used midrash in his own writings and exegetical teachings. When you get through the article it will begin to make more sense.

Remember too, that they were also being heavily influenced by Jewish sources and falling into error by trying to over "Judah-ise" their faith as apparent in Galatians Chapter 3. Who do you think was trying to put them back under the Law? I think they probably had a pretty good idea of many Jewish ideas and methods of the time.

Remember, that when you read Paul's letters, you have to read them the same way you would a letter that you received. Simply as that, ONE letter. Not chapters and verses, but as a whole.

 2010/11/9 8:45Profile
EverestoSama
Member



Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re:

I would suggest reading Romans 11 over again a few times. It doesn't conflict with the article at all. It's speaking of the election of Israel, and the inclusion of gentiles being now available. And it can also be talking about Christ. Even further evidence for the validity of what the article is trying to present.

I would just say, read the whole article, investigate the Scriptures presented, do further research on the articles points if so desired, and then sit back and pour through the Scriptures to see if what has been stated actually lines up. And lastly don't be scared to view something the way a first century Jewish believer would have viewed it. Not the way protestant seminary has trained most westerners to accept the Bible.

 2010/11/9 8:49Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

"And if ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Gal. 3.29).

That is to say, whether Jew or Gentile-- for that is the context of the above quotation-- those who are Christ's are Abraham's seed.


_________________
Allan Halton

 2010/11/9 10:55Profile









 Re:

Getting back to our Jewish Roots today is not a good teaching. It is a teaching that is becoming more and more prevalent in Evangelical Christianity, and it has no basis in Scripture.

The apostle Paul laid great emphasis on the fact that there is no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile among the believers in Jesus Christ. It is recorded in the book of Acts that the disciples of Jesus Christ, (without distinction to their background) were called Christians first at Antioch (Acts 11:26). However, many who now identify themselves as "Messianic" (often from Gentile backgrounds) are actually averse to being identified with the term Christian and many Jewish believers in Jesus insist on being called "Messianic Jews" rather than "Christians."

Many Christians have been stimulated and challenged by discovering more about the "Jewish roots" of the Christian faith. There are many so-called Messianic ministries which strive to enhance the understanding of the faith through teaching about the customs and traditions of the Jewish people and the ancient Jewish festivals which were a central part of the old covenant assembly of worshippers. There is, however, a vast difference between keeping or observing the feasts and teaching about the significance of the feasts in how they foreshadowed the redemption in Christ.

To read the rest of this excellent article from a Messianic Jew, please go here. This brother, Peter Cohen, I believe, sees it correctly.

https://www.givengain.com/cgi-bin/giga.cgi?cmd=cause_dir_news_item&news_id=74309&cause_id=1507

 2010/11/9 11:19





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy