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Discussion Forum : General Topics : David Clotfelter Sinners in the hands of a Good God

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 David Clotfelter Sinners in the hands of a Good God

I bought this book today for like three dollars at a resale shop. It really drew my interest because this man struggled with the view of eternal torment and the calvinistic view of God for many years he denied it. But, he goes on to explain as he studied the word of God and test it he began to see these to be the truths in the scripture. I was just wondering if anyone has read the book before and if so how did it impact you negatively or positively?

 2010/11/9 0:48
mguldner
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Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1862
Kansas

 Re: David Clotfelter Sinners in the hands of a Good God

I have never read the book but if you enjoy that read I would presume you would enjoy Jonathan Edwards Sermon, "Sinners in the hands of an Angry God" I believe this is what its called but definitely has thinking along the same lines as Brother Clotfelter may have.


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Matthew Guldner

 2010/11/9 1:05Profile









 Re:

I have not heard of this book (or author) before, but I can identify with the premise of the book (from the way you described it). When I was first exposed to Reformed Theology a few years back it was through the preaching of a man who I would now describe as a "hyper-Calvinist". So it was not a good exposure, and I ran from ANY type of Reformed Theology.

But gently, and over the course of a couple of years, God began to work on me. Through scripture He showed me the truth. Now I do not even like to call it "Reformed" Theology. It's not "reformed", it's always been there.

 2010/11/9 5:29









 Re:

Oh bother. THIS can of worms.

 2010/11/9 7:04









 Re:

Only if you choose to make it so. :-)

 2010/11/9 8:04









 Re:

Here is a question you might be able to answer for me that has really made me struggle with the reformed doctrine. If God had ordained the fall to happen and did so that in the end he could show his power and glory through elected believers then why is God angry at those he did not elect and becomes real angry at them though he could have mercy on them and set them free from this if he decided to do so. I don't know everything but if election is true why would God be mad at people who he has let them stay in their condition of lostness. I am not accusing God but how can you resolve this if the reformed theology is true.

 2010/11/9 22:05
mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1862
Kansas

 Re:

Well I guess this just shows that I am not reformed, I don't believe God ordained the fall of man however I believe He in His infitude knew very well what man would do. So the next question from that thinking is if God knew man was going to fall why then did He create man knowing this information?

The answer is Love, God wanted us to choose to Love Him as oppose to have to Love Him. If we were made without free will we would be mindless drones forced to Love which if you have ever tried forcing someone to Love even if you are sucessful it isn't Love because it doesn't come from a chose but an obligation.


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Matthew Guldner

 2010/11/10 1:03Profile









 Re:

*edit* Why bother.

 2010/11/10 1:28
learn
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Joined: 2008/7/24
Posts: 613


 Re:

[by mguldner on 2010/11/9 22:03:51
...So the next question from that thinking is if God knew man was going to fall why then did He create man knowing this information?

The answer is Love, God wanted us to choose to Love Him as oppose to have to Love Him...]



I was thinking this in regards to people who wants to have kids. If you ask them, pretty much the answer you get is because 'they love kids--that's why they want kids'. Seldom you have people in their 1st reason/sentence say because 'they want kids to love them and that's why they have kids'. Of course, if you prod further and get them to think, they will certainly say , 'yes, they do want kids to love them'. Of course, there's always the possibility that the kids may end up hating them, though that will not stop them from having kids.

Thus, for me when I hear people say God created man because He wanted people to love Him, I will prefer to phrase it first and foremost, because 'He love us--that's why he created us' (rather than the 1st reason as He wanted us to love Him).


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geraldine

 2010/11/10 1:45Profile
learn
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Joined: 2008/7/24
Posts: 613


 Re:

Also, another thing that always come to my mind is this.

Because we and the people we share the gospel to always want the 'power/decision' to be in our hands, we want to know the answer. Its normal. We want the security to know that we can decide to be saved.

However, when it comes to history--Israel was chosen and not the others, we don't keep questioning this right. Why? Because we and the others that are sharing the gospel with--theirs and our salvation will not be affected whether God choose Israel only or God choose 'everybody'. We can give all sorts of reason from God is chosing 'a holy people' for Himself, we don't know why He did that etc, but the main reason why we don't agonize over it is because it does not affect ours or others ability to control the decision to be saved. That's the real reason.


I think its important that whatever it is we believe in--be it God choose us or we choose Him, is to not give up seeking after Him, even if somewhere in our mind we feel that we are rejected by Him.

Take the Gibeonites (Joshua 9,10) for eg. They were bound for destruction by God BUT did they just give up since God said they were to be destroyed or did they fight God. Nope, they were willing to go to any lengths to be saved. And so their deception on being from a far away country. And God did spare them, even helping them by letting the sun stand still and giving the Amorites over to Israel when they attacked the Gibeonites. For me, if people were to be afraid/unsure of which 'doctrine is right', I will quote this to them.

This also reminds me of Nineveh where God withdrew his destruction of the city which He has declared. Why. Because the people repented of their ways.


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geraldine

 2010/11/10 1:56Profile





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