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UntoBabes
Member



Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1032
Oregon

 Re:

Pilgrim,

When you say that Adam had the flesh. Do you mean (hunk of meat), or the "invisible principle" that operates within our members. The word "flesh" in the Bible has two meanings.

The first meaning is not sinful, our Lord Jesus came in the flesh but He was sinless. The second meaning is sinful, invisible.

For example: my hand is made of flesh ( hunk of meat ). If the hand is operated by the invisible sin principle or the flesh in the negative sense, it will do the works of the flesh such as steal,hit, pull the trigger,...but if it is operated by the Spirit, it will help the needy, cook a meal to the hungry, write a kind note,...

It is the same hand or the same hunk of meat (flesh), but depending on the operating power be it the flesh ( invisible sin principle ) or the Spirit it will do the works of the flesh or the works of God.


_________________
Fifi

 2010/11/8 16:59Profile









 Re:

Madefree, thanks for your post. Several things to consider.

Alive-to-God, if we just go by what the Bible tells us, there is no reason to suspect that Adam did not have the same flesh we have.

My point is, flesh that is left alone, will not glorify God.

Madefree, coming from a strict Catholic background, I am well aware of their doctrine of original sin and the sin nature. That is why they baptize babies.

Yes, you are getting to my point of this whole thing.

"Now to say that sin is a nature is to say that is must be transmitted somehow. Sin cannot be physical, for that denies it's very principle. "

We create our Christianese language and then have to make up doctrines to support the terms we create. Something the RCC does very, very well. Saying sin is a "nature" opens up all kinds of cans of worms. It works much easier for me when the scriptures just says flesh. I can relate to that, but sin nature is like some metaphysical subtstance that seems made up.

That's why I say, Adam and Eve had flesh like us but it had not been tested/tempted. Flesh when tempted will not live for God, for there is nothing good in our flesh. We need the Spirit of God. It is too easy to invent a ritual of child baptism to nullify a nature when what is needed is the Spirit of God. That is why most Catholics today are still depending on their rituals and see no need for the indwelling Holy Spirit.

We are to put to death the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit of God. God's Spirit does not make flesh better, it crucifies it.

Thank you for your willingness to jettison christianese and see what the Bible says. I am fleshing (excuse the pun) this out with you guys and appreciate your input. This rocks standard christian theology, I know, but so much of what we believe today, I seem to recognize comes from the RCC.

I was born asking why and I think the Lord wants us to. We do not have to be afraid of anything. All we have to lose are erroneous beliefs and maybe some idols. God's Word won't disappoint.

Blessings to you all

BTW, thanks for that book title. I will look into it.

 2010/11/8 17:04
Madefree
Member



Joined: 2010/11/7
Posts: 193
Alabama

 Re:

Only thing about the book, Pilgrim, is the man does not believe in eternal security. I am unaware of your view on that, but I do not endorse that view. Just a heads-up.


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Mike Wright

 2010/11/8 17:12Profile
Renoncer
Member



Joined: 2010/6/26
Posts: 482


 Re:

Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-- for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(Romans 5:12-21)

 2010/11/8 17:22Profile









 Re:

Well, we don't all believe in the same exact things, do we?

I believe in the "Security of the Believer".

I do not believe in the "Security of the Unbeliever".

I will leave it to you to define Believer and Unbeliever from your reading of God's Word.

Pilgrim

 2010/11/8 17:23
UntoBabes
Member



Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1032
Oregon

 Re:

Quote:
"Now to say that sin is a nature is to say that is must be transmitted somehow. Sin cannot be physical, for that denies it's very principle. "




There is a mix up here between the word nature and the word Physical or natural.

Everything has a nature. There is the nature ( character or attribute )of God, of love, of evil, of spirit, of faith,....or anything you can think of.

But not everything is natural, or physical


_________________
Fifi

 2010/11/8 17:26Profile









 Re: The "Sin Nature"



Pilgrim replied

Quote:
Alive-to-God, if we just go by what the Bible tells us, there is no reason to suspect that Adam did not have the same flesh we have.

Hi PilgrIm,

I agree it's a bit unquantifiable, what sinless flesh may have been like, but, I believe Adam and Eve had a glory, being as they were in God's image, which they lost when they fell. [edit:] I don't mean they lost God's image. I mean they lost the glory that covered it - which is why they felt naked when it had gone after they sinned. [end]

Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son IN THE LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Hebvrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.


God covered a lot of ground when Christ took on flesh that was like sinful flesh, able to be tempted, and yet did He not sin, and had no 'sin nature', since He was Divine.

Peter's words may have influenced the language we use to describe our natural state, when he said: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these YE MIGHT BE PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (2 Pet 1)

 2010/11/8 17:30
Madefree
Member



Joined: 2010/11/7
Posts: 193
Alabama

 Re: UntoBabes

Yes indeed, I understand that. (Sorry if I was not clear upon that, my fault.) But to say that sin is a spiritually natural thing, is to say that God gave a sinful spirit. "Is Christ the minister of sin? God forbid!" I posted many Scripture references in my larger post toward the end I hope you will consider.


_________________
Mike Wright

 2010/11/8 17:34Profile
Madefree
Member



Joined: 2010/11/7
Posts: 193
Alabama

 Re:

Well, Pilgrim, it seems we hold a similar view upon that. I concur with what you just said. However I believe that the trick is not keeping salvation, it is getting it. I do believe in Perseverance of the Saints.


_________________
Mike Wright

 2010/11/8 17:36Profile









 Re: The "Sin Nature"



To UntoBabes, well spotted - the misunderstanding you have clearly elucidated. I enjoyed your 'hunk of meat' post. ;-)


To Madefree

Quote:
So if sin were to be placed anywhere as a nature, then it must be in the soul, which means that God would give it to you, for God fashions you and places your soul in your body.

There is no reason to assume that if sin is spiritual, it was God who 'placed it' in man.

God set out the conditions whereby man could live free from sin in the Garden of Eden, and Adam made a decision not to comply with God's command. As a result, Adam was no longer under God's blessing. By default, Adam came under the curse of death.

It is the spirit that gives life to the man. Logically then, the death which began to kill Adam because he had disobeyed God, was spiritual. If God had not put a stay on its effects, by commanding that men could live to 120 years old, some thousands of years ago, the human race would have died out by now. We are on borrowed time.

The spirit which God had breathed into Adam's body had given him and his flesh life, thus creating a soul. When the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in a man, He dwells with the man's spirit. The man's practical fellowship with, and obedience to that Spirit, affect everything about how he feels, how his flesh feels (mind thinks), and whether his soul is being purified by the choices he makes, or not.

1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

2 Cor 4:11
For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.


Put simply, I believe the living soul is the invisible sum of the person. Although God can divide between soul and spirit with His word, He intends man to be totally unified within himself and, in fellowship with Himself. Believers' souls will be clothed with an immortal body in the resurrection.

 2010/11/8 18:10





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