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DesiJr
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Joined: 2006/1/6
Posts: 113


 Re: Context of Matthew 13:37-39

Brother Everesto,

Could you expound for me Matthew 13:37-39 in context?

Blessings,

Desi

 2010/12/1 11:43Profile









 Re:

Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2

I believe that we have free will. God could have made robots and programmed them to obey him, but I don't believe you can have a genuine relationship without free will.

God desires that all repent and turn to him.

I believe we have to do the repenting and turning to God. We can see in the gospels again and again that people had to BELIEVE for miracles to occur.

Jesus Christ will judge the world in perfect righteousness.

I'm packing my suitcase for a place none of us has been
A place that has to be believed to be seen...
(Bono - walk on)


I

 2010/12/1 18:21









 Re:

What about a predestined free-will?

 2010/12/1 18:53









 Re:

Phanetheus,

I don't know about predestined free will, my brain is not computing that concept right now.

I just hold on tight to God' s righteousness as a judge. I don't believe in a God that COULD save everyone, but chose to predestine only a few to be saved.







 2010/12/1 20:19









 Re:

1Pe 1:2 'ELECT' ACCORDING TO THE "FOREKNOWLEDGE" OF GOD the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ

Rom 8:29 FOR WHOM HE DID "FOREKNOW", He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away His people WHICH HE "FOREKNEW".


GOD Foreknew what each human being would do with their GOD given "freewill" from before the foundation of the world.
He knew what Adam and Eve would do. That is why He is called "the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world."
He knew what Job would do. He knew how Abraham would respond to HIM. Every human being since Adam. And how each descendent of Abraham would react to Him. And each Gentile since, before the foundation of the world. He foreknew who would react to Him by "hardening" their own hearts against Him and His Word.
GOD even gave Israel charge to accept "the stranger" if he 'chooses' to join himself to The God of Abraham, His Word and His people.

'Those whom He foreknew' --- these verses cannot be erased from His Word, or explained away.

The "Elect" are those whom HE "Foreknew" would be "faithful unto the End" .... or their end. All of Scripture testifies of this - lest - we would never read admonitions nor find any "IF you will(s) or don't" or any "Ifs" at all in His Word.
We wouldn't need any warnings in the Old or New Testament at all, if He didn't grant every human being on earth a FREEWILL and "whosoever believeth in Him" = 'whosoever will' may obey His Word and be saved, in both Testaments.
"Whosoever" is found 93 times in the NT and it means "All/Any - who/which/that".
Search out, just that one word. GOD doesn't lie. Whosoever means, whosoever.

Who are warned of being 'cut off' from the olive tree in Rom 11? - Just for one example.

Someone had alluded that TSC 'seemed' to believe that GOD has elected/chosen some to eternal damnation (Limited atonement) despite and regardless of their GOD given Freewill - that is a very disturbing charge.



Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Calvin had gone so far as to say that a person could believe in Christ and live by His Word and yet find out on judgment day that he was not one of the "elect".
Where is "the assurance of our salvation" in that?

Forgive me if this grieves me so.


GOD Bless, until we meet Him Face to face.

 2010/12/4 14:02









 Re:

PREDESTINATION IN FREE WILL

Why Predestined free will?

God tells and shows us both exist and are active:
in that order
and
at the same time.

To consider that it is either only predestination or free will is look at less than half of the picture. God has shown us example after example in the Bible that tell us it is not only predestination or only free will. When we (think we)believe and talk like it can only be one of them and not both together, we are turning our faces stubbornly away from God's very revelation to us. That is a very stiff-necked approach to God, other men, ourselves, and even the way the world turns. The one who lives in less then half the light God gives cuts themselves off from further and clearer understanding about how all this works in real life.

Rainman and i carried on a few correspondences months ago, and "election" being one issue, ever since then, i've been trying to think of a way to explain it simply and i'm still not there yet.

Naatmi's posts really got the wheels spinning here. After he gave the example of Jonah and Nineveh, and looking further towards the scriptures with this 'predestination or free-will?' perspective, everywhere looked, it appeared to be more and more like the both are present and active in every situation.


Until our moderator C. J. posted those words from 'The Prince of Preachers" at the top of this thread p.5, i thought i was a lone duck. . .and first proceeded to put foreward mnemonic analogies. Much is being better understood through the wide variety of these brought to forum by everyone participating in this thread; but i still can't get all of them together as one congruent working picture.
(maybe i need to read the works of that guy.)



One of the first posts (this thread) from here told there was no adherance to either Calvinism or Armenianism. I have not ever had problems with either Calvinists nor Armenians. They think they believe in either one or the other, yet both sides of the aisle cannot discount one another completely. They ask if i believe in predestination and i'll give a hearty "yep!", but that same hearty "yep!" comes when asked if i believe in free will. Other non-specific hints were given that i'm sure of both, but it was thought somebody has got to have something that will either correct me or set this issue straight once and for all; but now it's just like both of them have been smashed together so fast and hard they have become indistiguishable from one another. Through the course of everybodies fantastic cooperative participation in Brother Willy's thread, these two concepts have become not only fast(ened), but covered in tar and rolled in feathers.



The whole issue of two opposing sides ?
Two sides to one coin is a poor analogy.

It's more like God's predestination is the hand of complete foreknowledge
and free will is that glove worn to manifest both working in unison.
Often, the closer we look to God's guiding hand, the more the glove goes unnoticed.
Still, without the hand using the glove, the glove would be inanimate.

So, from our frame of reference, it seems we would not know anything about free-will without predestination and we would not know anything about predestination without free-will.


. . .(for we the sheeple know this at least,)
without death we will never know life. . .and still, everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die.




It was also first mentioned that to understand God's revelation to us about this, or anything else, we have to understand where our perspective stands in relation to God:
It's tainted, tattered and torn to say the least.

God says the precursor to knowing Him
in the very breathings of living he has LOANED us
comes through simply laying down of everything that makes us identify with this earth and disregard God.


"Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts and:
let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him;
and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.
Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.

Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.
(Is. 55.6-56.8)



Talk about glorious wonderful amazing promises!
Praise God!

He's true and He honors His word above His name.

These are not promises of the past or for the future. These are the eternal promises of our Ancient of Days, the Alpha and Omega, Jesus Christ who never changes.

These promises always happen when we do what God tells us allowing Him to become a greater reality in our lives. When we believe and do what God says, we are seeking his face and He gives us a hand, His hand to lead and guide and direct our steps.

Do what this Word from Him says and it is done in our lives even as revealed here. Because He never changes these words ring true for all time into eternity.
(This is predestined freewill.)














We first read that back in The Garden our mother and father outsourced both this planet and the image given us to that primordial serpent, that murderer, the father of lies, our adversary: HATE hIM!

It was not until Thee second Adam came and gave up His life blood for us that we could most clearly see that He laid down His own nature and very life to whosoever will rest in the peaceful confidence from Him alone. . .



. . .but here's the one that sticks out to me,showing a quite pronounced example of what is intended in saying "predestined freewill."

Naboth had a vinyard growing right up next to king Ahab's castle in Syria, and Ahab coveted it to grow vegetables (or so he said). Ahab offered Naboth the choice of either a better vineyard or his vineyards value in cold hard cash.

The problem was that this was Naboth's inheritance passed on from generation to generation. These type things were first recieved from the hand of the LORD after the children of Israel had crossed the Jordan and followed His lead into the land flowing with milk and honey. Naboth told the king he could never just give up the family's inheritance.

Ahab went home quite unsatisfied. In fact, he was so sad and frustrated, he began pouting like a spoiled rotten brat. He went and laid down on his bed. When food was brought him, he turned away and refused to eat.

That evil wench of a queen Jezebel came and asked him what had him so upset he wouldn't even eat, so he told her. So She told him, "You rule Israel so eat and don't worry, be happy because I'll give you Naboth's vineyard."

Jezebel manipulated things to set Naboth up for his demise. At a feast honoring Naboth, through the false witness of two worthless men claiming falsehoods about Naboth, he was set up for the fall, and killed. . .
. . .and the vineyard somehow made it into Ahab's hands.
(isn't that just amazing?)

. . .but it's not the end of the account.

Yaweh's prophet Michaiah came to the castle and warned wicked king Abab that he would die in a battle.

There were then 3 years that passed without even a skirmish between Israel and Syria. Kinda' like the calm before the storm
(. . .kinda' like what's happening right now in the world)

Ahab had plenty of time to consider and at least get right with God before what followed those 3 peacefulyears; but, is this what we see in his actions that followed?

You see, inevitably eventually war did erupt.

Ahab tried to stay out of harm’s way and beat the prophecy. During His attempt to avert that prophecy
--and it looked like everything was going according to his (free)will--
a stray arrow found a chink in his armor
AND HE DIED JUST LIKE GOD HAD STATED.
(Talk about predestined freewill...)


Only God almighty could have taken into account the subtle shift in the wind or an accidental twitch of a soldiers arm with bow string drawn and arrow knoked. . . and all we can be definitely sure of definitely the haughty spirit of Ahab finally rising to the foretold occaison.

There are dreamers and schemers, prognosticators and planners
but then there's God who has already declared the end from the very beginning.




If you don't ever want to experience a sense of foreboding helplessness, drop you preconceptions. Forsake what you think will happen when you do whatever you choose to do. Drop it all so you will be free to know God.

Only then will He show you very clearly that He already holds your future in His hands. This also means that He has a plan for each and every one of us: things predestined for us to do
even if we can never understand anything but a very small portion of it.

Stretching beyond our current bounds of time and space, here and now it's the securest sensation knowing we are in the hands of someone who loves us so much:
He made everthing.
He knows everything.
He tells us if we just forget about what we think and what we want to do,
He will come to us and make His Word reality in our lives right here right now.

If but one moment, let's think on this:
He delivered His one and only Son to die for us so we can walk with Him back to The Garden. When we daily take up our cross and die: He is faithful and true to His unchanging Word, raising us to New and everlasting Life through His Spirit.

. . .and in this venue of predestined free-will, our Heavenly Father and His one and only Son, Jesus Christ chose to do this before the foundation of the world. . .

If this is not predestined free-will what would you call it?


Between what God has already seen and what we humans can only glimpse the tiniest portion of there is an abyss, and Jesus Christ is the only bridge. Through personal growth in Him, it has been realized that the closer we draw to Him, He shows us all about what we need to know how to live . . . and when needful, what's coming around the bend.

There are four servant songs in Isaiah, prophecies of and about Jesus Christ (and those who are His servants).

In Is. 42, there are some very telling things about God's place in whole predestined free-will scenario:
(PLEASE PAY SPECIAL ATTENTION TO vv. :

v. 1 --->'mine elect'
v. 4 --->God's plan
v.8&9-->God's perspective

1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.

3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

10 Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.

11 Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains.

12 Let them give glory unto the LORD, and declare his praise in the islands.

13 The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.

14 I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself: now will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once.

15 I will make waste mountains and hills, and dry up all their herbs; and I will make the rivers islands, and I will dry up the pools.

16 And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.

17 They shall be turned back, they shall be greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images, that say to the molten images, Ye are our gods.

18 Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see.

19 Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD'S servant?

20 Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.

21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.


. . . and would anybody care to consider v.19-21 and take a stab at what is actually being said there?

Really Isaiah 42:1 says it all. Jesus Christ being God's elect, everything else everywhere for all time is secondary, all happening for this one purpose:
"Eyiah Asher Eyiah"
(loosely translated, "I AM as I have been and in all ways remain as I AM")



Shalom,

g

 2010/12/22 21:15
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi g, wonderful post...it stops a little short to were i believe...therefore it is almost correct lol...jimp

 2010/12/23 1:58Profile









 Re:

Thanks Jim,

Your comments being read, the post was reread.

It still seems kind of choppy.
So it wondered if some might somehow get the wrong impression, thinking it's only about God and not God in relation to His creation.

As well, there are times when God was the last thing on my mind and He rattled my cage, making unseen things very visible. . .so maybe the emphasis should be more about:
when we relate with God according to the way He percieves and does things, we are allotted more abundant life in Him (as promised).

It's the difference between walking with God or going our own way. We can do what we want, but is it the best way?

Shalom,

g

 2010/12/23 10:05









 Re:

Well I have to say I agree with the doctrine of election when it comes to Isaiah 42!

 2010/12/25 15:55









 Re:

Quote:
Well I have to say I agree with the doctrine of election when it comes to Isaiah 42!



Haha! Me too actually. :)

 2010/12/25 18:58





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