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 Re:

"The reformation I see happening today isn't so much over the gospel as it is over the nature of church governance."

Jimmy, let me be frank :) I truly believe you just dont get it. You really have no idea of the people who are drawn to the " remnant,' movement. Not a single one of them would say it had anything to do with church governance. You wrote this in your heresy post.......

"Until then, they will find themselves content to walk almost entirely alone, except for sporadic fellowship they experience through the internet and various conferences that they travel to. Many often see themselves as prophetic types of individuals, like an Elijah, who alone is left to take a stand against Ahab and the prophets of Baal."

I have yet to meet a single person who has come out of the established church " content to walk almost entirely alone." In fact, the exact opposite has been true. They are a people who agonize over their inability to find anyone who is passionate about Jesus. They talk to people about their grand obsession, Jesus, and are met by blank stares. They talk to people about the crisis in Christendom, and again, blank stares.

You then go on to describe these dear saints in this fashion.........


"They say that they see, but in such a confession, they only make themselves doubly blind. And in their refusal to remain in fellowship with an intentionally organized local group of believers, and calling upon others to “come out” and join them in the wilderness, they ultimately embrace the carnal and fleshly attitude of a schismatic, and in doing so, truly meet the qualifications of the Biblical definition of a heretic."

Really Jimmy, heretics? And yet you claim in this post that one day you will do the same? You write.....

"those who run around saying they are the remnant, and refuse to gather themselves together in a local assembly of believers, truth be told, are just as carnal as the Church they lament and weep over. They are spiritually immature children who refuse to grow up and prefer to have tantrums in their own sand box, which they confuse with a wilderness. Self-absorbed, and being left largely to themselves, the cancerous ideas that have infected their minds eat them alive, and almost entirely consume them. Thus, many of them begin to imagine that they are spiritually mature, and maybe even prophetic voices crying in the wilderness. But truth be told, they are everything except what they imagine themselves to be."

Really Jimmy? " Cancerous ideas that have infected their minds eat them alive and almost entirely consume them." ? What are these cancerous ideas? Because they left the established church? Jimmy, you could have gotton a job with the Jesuits of old. This is exactly what Catholicism thought of those who would seperate themselves from the " true," church. Again you write.......


"Indeed, far from being spiritually mature and prophetic voices, these individuals have refused to grow up in the Lord by embracing the cross of Jesus Christ in authentic Christian community."

Again Jimmy, you just dont get it. Its " authentic Christian community," that these people are after, that is exactly why they left the established church. They gather together in small groups and home churches and they do have fellowship when and where they can find it. Those who do not, long for it. You write.......

"Instead of confronting the issues of their day and in their Christian community, they shy away from doing the real work of the Lord, and prefer to make-believe they are prophets."

Jimmy, maybe its just me, but it seems to me there is a tremendous amount of anger and bitterness in your words?

"And because they refuse to embrace this cross of Christian community and undergo death, like many within the “established” Church today, they become just as cold, dead, and powerless in their ministry."

"So, running from the call of God on their lives to be intentionally involved in a local Christian community, they withdraw from the saints, and imagine they are one of the few people they know in their city that are actually saved and filled with the Spirit of God. They withdraw from local fellowship, and take their precious little light and hide it from others, except maybe those on Facebook, blogs, and forums, where they lament about the glory having departed from the Church, and how they long to see revival. Such are perhaps, some of you."

Jimmy, you end the diatribe with this statement ....


" But these words were spoken in nothing but absolute love, not only for the Lord, but also for my brethren, and those who believe themselves to belong to an out-of-Church remnant."

Forgive me Jimmy, but I'm just not feeling the love brother. These are not the words of love. You have a right to accuse these people of heresy and of being cold and dead and powerless and immature and cancerous and minds that are eaten up and carnal and fleshly, and being doubly blind, but you cannot have it both ways. There is a reformation coming, on this we agree, and we also agree that this reformation is already underway. Yet these people, these remnant people, are lovers of God and sigh and cry over what they see in Christendom. They long to see all those who are called after the name of Jesus to encounter the living God,in such a way that ruins them for all of this life. This is the revival that is coming, this is the reformation that is coming, a revival of the presence of the Living God. God will be found by those who seek Him with their whole hearts.......brother Frank

http://scottishwarriors.wordpress.com/2009/06/25/surrounded-by-a-wall-of-fire/

 2010/10/12 0:37
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Frank,

And yes, you can be Frank. :-)

I have a sense that maybe you and I are close to connecting on something, but perhaps though we are using the same vocabulary, perhaps we have different definitions. A phrase I keep seeing, "established Churches" throws me off a bit.

By "established Churches," do you mean to include largely regenerated fellowships who are part of larger denominations? Do you mean to include those like my church, who have an episcopal polity, but yet have some very godly and anointed individuals who are on "staff?" Do you lump fellowships like mine together, with the likes of Roman Catholicism and liberal unregenerate "churches?"

My personal testimony is that in the Foursquare church I attend, which happens to be a thriving "mega-Church" with about 20 staff pastors, and approximately 3000 members, I find many awesome brothers and sisters in the Lord whom I could not ever imagine parting from. We are a church with problems no doubt. We recently had to remove our praise & worship leader from his ministry because he was involved in a sexual relationship with somebody other than his wife. But the Lord has blessed us greatly, and His manifest presence is regularly present when we gather in large assemblies, as well as small groups. People seem hungry for the Lord, and great love abounds for one another. Which honestly, the first time visiting my Church, I simply did not expect. But I found the Lord powerfully at work in it.

By established Churches, do you consider mine an established Church that "the remnant" needs to run away from? If so, I still contend from the original post you would be in grave error to think so, and without a Biblical leg to stand on. For though it is a Church that needs reform, without a doubt, it still qualifies as a geniune Church in my mind. But if such fellowships as I am a part of are not included, then, I think we are closer than it might appear to agreement. I don't think anyone should have anything to do with unregenerate "Christians."

Thanks for the clarification.

(edited for clarification)


_________________
Jimmy H

 2010/10/12 8:20Profile









 Re:

"By established Churches, do you consider mine an established Church that "the remnant" needs to run away from? If so, I still contend from the original post you would be in grave error"

Again I would just say that you do not understand the vast majority of the people who are leaving the churhces " in droves,' to quote another poster.

Nobody is running away, people are leaving, feet dragging, in great sadness. They are not cancerous or heretics, or cold or dead or powerless as you stated in your post. Their minds are not effected and the only thing they are consumed with, is a passionate love for the Lord Jesus Christ. Having said all that, you asked me about your church Jimmy, and what I meant about the word " established."

I know nothing about your church, save what you have told me or others here. So let me ask you some questions Jimmy and it will probably determine what I would consider to be an " establishment," church. You say that there is 3000 people in your church. Lets say that within this 3000 people, 1% have the gift of teaching. Do 30 regular people get the chance to teach from the platform in your church Jimmy? Is it a clergy /laiety system? Is there the freedom to stand up and testify if the Holy Spirit prompted you? Could you stand up and share a Scripture if the Lord laid it on your heart. You say that the worship leader was removed because of sexual imorality, was this a paid position? If I were at your church, and the Holy Spirit laid a hymn upon my heart and asked me to stand up and start singing it in the time of worship, could I do that? Would the worship leader fall in behind that or would that not be acceptable? What if I had an exhortation? Is there the freedom to exhort the people? You get the idea?.......brother Frank

 2010/10/12 14:11
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

I think I am in the middle between Jimmy and Frank's views on this issue. I agree with Jimmy in that I see many precious brethren who are part of the institutional church system and I do not want to "part" from them or have a hyper critical and divisive spirit or attitude. And I agree with Frank in that I see many problems within the institutional system, problems which hinder genuine Christianity from flowing in the Spirit. Currently I am in a place where I am seriously seeking the Lord in terms of starting a home fellowship(There are a few believers who are in mind as co-laborers/planters). Jimmy I would encourage you to seriously consider that possibility since you stated you are sensing the Lord leading you that way in the future. I believe we need more fellowships to be formed that can be good examples to the brethren, as to what genuine fellowship is.


_________________
Oracio

 2010/10/12 16:10Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Do 30 regular people get the chance to teach from the platform in your church Jimmy? Is it a clergy /laiety system? Is there the freedom to stand up and testify if the Holy Spirit prompted you? Could you stand up and share a Scripture if the Lord laid it on your heart. You say that the worship leader was removed because of sexual imorality, was this a paid position? If I were at your church, and the Holy Spirit laid a hymn upon my heart and asked me to stand up and start singing it in the time of worship, could I do that? Would the worship leader fall in behind that or would that not be acceptable? What if I had an exhortation? Is there the freedom to exhort the people? You get the idea?.......



Fair questions, to which I answer yes and no. Our church has made a microphone available for people to use if they feel the Lord has given them a word to share with the congregation, or if there is a tongue/interpretation. So, if you really feel the Lord has a word for you to share, you are free to do so. People have done it in the past, but, it is a rare thing.

Our services, as I'm sure you'd imagine, are not a totally open format. They are very structured. We have three services on Sunday mornings. If showed up with a guitar and were prepared to sing a hymn, such would probably not be allowed to happen though. And yes, our praise & worship leader was salaried. Presently though, we don't have an official worship leader, and they are simply rotating various members of the choir in and out of that position. Truth be told, I'm not sure the church is looking to replace the position any time soon. If they are, there has been no indication such is going to happen. As it is, we've been doing just as good if not better without our former leader.

So, that's the way things are. If memory serves correct, we also have around 50 small groups that meet at homes and other locations throughout our community. There is much more room for sponinaity in most of those.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2010/10/12 16:56Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Oracio,

Yes I have seriously considered starting such a church where I am at. But the Lord has told me no each time. He's called me to start a church in another part of the state, but not yet. I still have some growing to do He says.

And when I do finally venture out in this work one day, it is simply to plant a Church. Though I hope to mold it into a certain format, I am not starting a Church to have an open and simplistic style, though I hope it grows that way. I'm planting a Church simply because I believe that is what the lord has told me to do. Not because I have a certain theological axe to grind. I'm simply hoping to establish Christ where He is yet named and among those who have not called upon Him.

In my opinion, there is a world of difference between seeking to establish a Church that is much more in accord with the Biblical pattern, because the Lord has simply called you to plant Churches, versus that of planting a Church simply because you want to meet in a certain format that currently does not exist at your present fellowship. The first option is definitely of God. The second probably has something to do more with the flesh.

There is a difference, as some have pointed out, between "sent" and "went."

*edited for additional comment*


_________________
Jimmy H

 2010/10/12 17:23Profile









 Re:

Jimmy, to share Christ, we must have His life and know His ways. I'm glad you have zeal for the Lord and want to bring Him to unreached people. I pray he uses you to share your portion of Him, indeed, as He desires all of all His children. We all have a lot to learn subjectively and not intellectually. For Christ to be formed in us is the main objective.. And that means going down the same road as He. Being emptied of self with our hearts turned completely to Jesus.

I learned much from reading Oliver Peng's latest writing on the Remnant. He shares experiences and lessons learned about those who set out to plant a church. I was truly humbled and submit that article (in two parts) to all those that have a desire to do great things for God.

God bless you,
Pilgrim

 2010/10/12 19:38
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

For Christ to be formed in us is the main objective..



Absolutely. Amen. That is what I strive for in my own life, and in my ministry. That Christ might be fully formed in me, and that He might be fully formed in others. There is nothing outside of that.

I'll TRY to read those essays later. I saw them earlier, but currently, lack the time at this moment.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2010/10/12 19:52Profile









 Re:

"Our services, as I'm sure you'd imagine, are not a totally open format. They are very structured."

I am not against structure Jimmy, I am against " very structured." Brother Yun, when asked about the American church said that he was amazed what they had achieved..........................without the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit has been " structured," right out of most of what passes for the church.

Pilgrim writes.... "Jimmy, to share Christ, we must have His life and know His ways."

"We all have a lot to learn subjectively and not intellectually."

Amen Pilgrim. To be truly be broken and be emptied of all our own ambtions. There is no room for self on the narrow path that leads to life. Jimmy, your church sounds like a fine institution, but if the very structure keeps the Holy Spirit from speaking, then who would care how many programs it had or how many good works it did? If there were many teachers in your gatherings, then your pastor would not have to get up at 3am and work to 10pm. You say that there are three services, does he preach all three services, and if so, why?..........brother Frank

 2010/10/13 0:15









 Re:

I know it is hard to imagine a meeting where Jesus Christ is the HOST and not just the mere Guest of Honor. Let me rephrase that, He is not even the Guest of Honor. If you have never experienced it, I can only say, it is incredible. Absolutely awesome. To look around and see everyone being built up and edified and to see the teenagers loving it. Brother, Jesus knows how to lead His church, every age group.

Catholics cannot understand the presence of the Holy Spirit and that Jesus Christ does indeed lead His Church and Build His Church on a daily basis. The Pope is the Vicar of Christ, afterall. He has Temporal and Spiritual Authority on earth, the "Faithful" are taught. Basically, Rome propagates the teaching to all their followers that The Pope, Cardinals, Bishops, and Priests are mini-Jesus's on earth with the Pope being the "Big Guy". This is actual Catechetical teaching. It is without a doubt a clergy/laity system. And I could go on and on with their liturgy, rituals, etc. There is no life and there is no light and their Jesus is a false Jesus.

I was raised by parents who were raised in Jesuit schools from first grade all the way until they graduated from Jesuit Universities. I am quite familiar with clergy/laity, and all the "wonderful" TRAPpings (excuse the pun), that come along with it. They are very "Works" oriented, too, I might add.

So, Catholicism - Clergy/Laity - Rituals - Liturgy - Programs - Works Oriented..... Where is the Holy Spirit?

Looking at Protestantism, it is not a whole lot different. In fact, the way that Protestantism has been structured, to use your term, it actually easy prey for Rome. Why, because you are already there in structure. In fact, many are caving in to the Ecumenical spirit and going back to Rome.

Back to Protestantism - Clergy/Laity - Rituals - Liturgy - Programs - Works Oriented - Where is the Holy Spirit?

Now, I know they differ somewhat, but pretty much, you have a Corporation type structure. CEO, Board Members and then the people (workers). Clergy do not do work like the people do. They are not involved in everyday life.

Now, Catholicism is extreme when it comes to absolutely no life. I mean Divine LIFE.

With Protestantism, you find pockets of it in individuals.

I am going to stop using Protestant now and use born-again.

Most Born-again people that have the Holy Spirit, would not think of fellowshipping in a place with NO DIVINE LIFE.
Which would be CATHOLICISM.

Which now brings us back to Protestantism or churches where born-again people hang out. Jimmy, because of all of the similar structure, the Holy Spirit is basically not welcome because Man is doing his thing. It is as if we told the Lord years ago, "Ok Lord, we know how it is done and we can take it from here." That is exactly how it looks and smells and feels.

And, people that have the Spirit of God in them know that something is wrong, because they are living lives of quiet desperation in these Churches. They want LIFE, and FELLOWSHIP, true KOINOINIA. Jesus Christ did not save us so that we could be lectured AT the rest of our life.

Do you understand just a little bit, Jimmy, that there are a lot of hurting people in these churches. These are God's lambs, bro. You may be in a great church, even though it is structured. I really hope the least of the least in your church is being given the most prominence. That would be quite scriptural.

The reason that people are leaving is for their own survival. Like I said, they are living lives of quiet desperation, trying to be a good tither, go to church on Sunday, get the kids ready, don't fight on the way, be involved in programs, give to overseas missions, give to special speakers that come to town, give for the special building project, give for the parking lot that needs to be repaved. Basically, give of their time, their money, their energies, their marriages until they have absolutely nothing left and then sit down and listen to another lecture.

Please read Jeremiah 23, Isaiah 28 and Ezekiel 34 when you get a chance.

Love you brother. God's people are hurting.

 2010/10/13 0:56





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