Monroe, LA - USA
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THANKS for all of your comments. I have been praying about how to address this issue. In looking at it more deeply, I thought about Peter ... he fits all of the description of "impossible to renew" before falling and denying Christ ... power to heal ... mount of transfiguration experience ... several confessions of KNOWING the Word made flesh ... yet he fell.
Then, after he was baptised in the Holy Ghost (Gal. ch. 2), he fell into hypocracy ...
I really believe that he repented before (as history tells us) he was crucified upside down.
He certainly commended Paul in his epistles even though Paul had rebuked him face to face.
| 2010/9/24 15:29||Profile|
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I do not think that Peter fits the description of Impossible to renew in any way.
In you want an example from the deciples, it would be Judas rather than Peter.
Our Lord had for- prophesied of Judas fate when He said: Woe to that man be whom the Son of Man is betrayed."
| 2010/9/24 16:50||Profile|
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Let the Word explain the Word.
""Repentance is NOT salvation... you can repent and NOT be saved!! ""
But what does God's Word say?
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
| 2010/9/26 12:28|
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Salvation, one time experience???
Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Coming into the Kingdom of God may be a one time experience, but salvation is ongoing just as repentance and obedience are. (Sanctification). And God's Word implies that if you do not endure to the end, you won't be saved.
Is obedience a one time experience?
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Did not say believe in Him, but rather obey him.
I would submit that we need to look at the whole counsel of God and not just isolated verses.
Peter says, Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
True belief comprises Repentance and obedience, something the demons do not do. They only "believe" (know He is awesome and terrible and that He exists). They tremble, but they never repent and obey from a standpoint of love. They obey from a standpoint of fear when they are being rebuked or cast out of someone.
| 2010/9/26 12:40|
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As noted we are dealing with repentance here that is no small thing because without repentance one dies in their sin and that includes Christians
Christians who sin presumptuously (or in ignorance but then when they have become aware continue in their sin) and/or without repenting will become impossible to renew unto repentance.
Christian sin is a real problem in the church and personally I have found it so rampant that when considering who to employ or enter into a contract with, history says that I am better off to rule out trusting a Christian. I am talking of multiple churches and high ranking members in the church and in the community that lie and steal without a second thought.
Why is this so.........because when they first started down that road they did not repent and now satan has them so strongly in his grasp that they fulfill the lesson of Jesus when he speaks of the unclean spirit returning to a man.
| 2010/10/4 9:20||Profile|
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Why does everybody take these scripture and make them to be responsible for repentance of man. These scripture are an assurance of Gods trustworthiness when it comes to those that He has given the heavenly gift. Stating all these things God has done and then you think it is man's responsibility to repent. The only way a man won't repent is if God won't give it. This is for the believer to go on into the perfection of Christ. Not to think he will be cast away if he does not repent. Only God grants repentance that changes us. Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Only God birthed His Son in us that have tasted of the heavenly gift and He will not take away what He has begun in the believer, He will perfect it until the end. This is and assurance that if His children could do what he say will send them to be burned is to say It is impossible that He will. But If He did that is what would happen. That is not what He does by the birthing of His Son in the believer, God is not so stupid to allow a birthing and it come to repentance that can abort His Son in the believer. His Incorruptable Seed in the believer is not capable of abortion. If this was possible to leave and not be renewed, God has given the wrong ones to His Son.
Hebrews 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: These are those God has birthed by the Incorruptable Seed of the Father, Jesus Christ in the Believer, the Born Again, which are Christs and He will not loose any except one, Judas.
We drink in the rain that often comes and we produce the fruit meet by whom we are dressed, Jesus Christ. We receive blessing from God, even our salvation which is true.
These that produce thorns and are burned are not the born again our the Christ Seed is impotent and no ones birthing stands before God. Christ promises those the Father gives Him He will not loose, and will keep them until that day.
Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
This is what happens to those that are in Christ and accompanies salvation; Hebrews 6:9-14 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
We are multiplied by the giving to the Son those that should be saved and by the silliness of preaching the Word of God that the Holy Spirit might convict of sin and bring those to Christ the Father has given Him.
He will multiply His Church and make no mistake He will choose rightly and perfect those that He gives to His Son for His own Body His Church.
Let us go on into perfection which is Christ Jesus the Son of God who is now our Spirit birthed by the Father in us. The Holy Spirit giving power to each believer that He is in the Body and baptized into One Spirit. That is the Spirit of Christ birthed in us and The Holy Spirit in is forever to teach us this mystery of Christ in you the Hope of Glory.
Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Ro 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
Ro 15:30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;
2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
Ga 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Ga 6:18 Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen. Unto the Galatians written from Rome.
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Php 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
"Moving on into perfection". It is the Father and Jesus Christ the Son and the Holy Spirit that will keep you and show you greater things that we ever thought possible.
2Th 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.
Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
The Great Grace of the Father and the Son given and working by the Holy Spirit; Ephesians 2:19-22 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
In Christ The greatest miracle of all: Phillip
| 2010/10/5 23:40||Profile|
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NOw that's a good word or 3.
Thanks, i needed that.
This is one area that is always a burden to me, and i am grieved deeply when talk is critical, or even questioning another person when they are not present. This thread strikes at the heart of the matter. Talking back biting is sowing dischord, gossip, and being a busy-body through cursing another person made in God's image.
It is the way of the coward.
Scripture reveals the righteous are bold as lions.
Knocking another down to appear better is self-glorification.
To get wrong doctrine right is one thing; but talking behind another's back only brings attention to ourselves (through this cursing) and is the same as sculpting an idol.
Who is worse, the idol maker or the worshipper?
If there were no idols made, there would be no idols to worship.
Are our actions relative to this issue borne out of God's faithfulness or fear through our own faithlessness.
Bless and be blessed in Christ.
If the following text is not clear enough TMS and/or AMS. It has been prayed that God guide what was written. It is hoped all possible case scenarios are covered here so that we can repent, be converted, experience the Gifts of the Holy Spirit more fully moving foreward in Christ, even as deep calls to deep.
Some say this verse only applies to the Hebrews who were addressed in this letter/epistle. WRONG! (it would not be there if it did not have any application to us.) If it only applies to them, growing mature in Christ and Jesus priesthood in heaven does not apply to us either.
Some say this verse applies to those who are not really being saved at all. To say that these whom this verse applies to only tasted but didn't eat, flies in the face of factual reality. Hebrews 2.9 says God's Son tasted death for every man. Was Jesus just sampling death on the cross? To taste is to experience. It is talking about believers who through the Water and the Spirit, through the Word and Power of God, in the Truth of His glory revealed, experienced the gifts of salvation in Jesus Christ. They have tasted --experienced-- salvation through the Word of God in the power transcending this age.
All reading are asked to reveal how an unregenerate puts
--the work and power of God in them through--
Jesus Christ to shame?
Those teaching we can lose our salvation teach that we can also regain it. Hebrews 6.4-6 teaches just the opposite. Remove the expletive clauses and we get "for it is impossible . . . to renew them unto repentance." According to scripture, those who are apostate can be restored so this passage must obviously not be talking about apostacy. It is not talking about one who willingly turns their back on Jesus work in their life, and in returning to the old life is lost forever.
Some say this verse is speaking hypothetically; and from experience, and in context of the transition of impersonal pronouns taken with verse 9: "But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak." This agrees with Jesus saying that being His, "no man (including ourselves) can pluck us out of His Hands." IF these words of Jesus ever became untrue, it would put Jesus to shame. (Read the last section of this chapter for further clarity of context as well.)
The not so obvious is always revealed in relation to the things around it that are obvious. Don't make the mistake of straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel.
Christians can sin UNTO death (I Cor. 11.30-32 & I Jn. 5.16-17). i have nearly done this very thing the passage is speaking about. While this life still hung in the balances between life and death, back and forth, alive then dead again and again, in ICU's intensive care, the Angel of the Lord scared me so bad body functions went haywire, monitors plugged into this body all sounding their alarms, He appeared at the end of my bed pointing to the nightstand beside me and became unseen again. After the Gideon Bible in it was finally in my clutch, unseen hands slapped it into my lap. It fell open to Hebrews 12. This was the chastening of the Lord. i could have rejected God's straightening out my life (again) and a moment later been ushered into eternity; but oh what a merciful God we have, who through His grace is mighty to save we who have been appointed heirs of salvation. God never ever says, "ok, you blew it, you're going to hell" and a moment later fire from heaven strikes you dead. . .
. . . but "shall we continue to sin, that grace may abound? God forbid!" Being adopted by Him, we are joint-heirs with Jesus in all things, one of which is the grace of His mercy in discipline.
Convoluted notions are the result of opinions and not experience relative to the scripture. Add to this the fact that English interpretations of the Bible are a sorry excuse in exchange for it's archaic languages. Many are those who exigetically disect and pontificate a passage without understanding through proof of it in the living. We all do it,
BUT GOD, please be merciful to us when we know we are wrongly 'rightly dividing?' the Word of Truth. Unless God gives direct revelation, we walk like fools in doing this. Being thoroughly furnished comes through proving God's Word where the rubber meets the road.
v. 4 For it is impossible for those who were 'once enlightened', and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
v. 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
v. 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
In Koine, the verb for 'fall-away' in v. 6 is not 'apostasia'. It is 'parapipto' meaning to 'fall-by-the-wayside'.
The word 'once' in v.4 indicates the manuscripts meaning of 'enlightened once and for all time'; (see also Heb. 10:32 for same verb / also look to II Cor. 4.4-6).
As well, the pronouns in v.4 are no longer talking about "we" and "us", but rather "those." We all know that "those" is not "us." Neither is it "we."
Who is any man to judge who God will and will not kill? Who are we, because of some outward act(s), to determine who God accepts or rejects? Who are we to think we are the righteous determinate council of God? Who are we to stop praying for anybody who still has hope as long as the are still breathing?
. . . for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart. ( I Sam. 16.7e-g ).
For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease. ( Job 14:7 )
Are you God?
Do you think your judgements put you in control?
Shall your countenance be lifted up in holding another person accountable?
Nay, in continuing doing this unto you comes the whirlwind! ( Mt. 7.1-5, Rom. 2.1-11 )
Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up. Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another? ( Jas. 4.5-12 )
Oh flesh of dust, you are but a moment.
It God alone who determines who shall be lifted up or fall. Judge not that you be not judged.
Only when we judge ourselves, we shall not be judged.
When you are shown anothers failings is it for nought?
Has God shown you so that you can judge that man rather than He who alone judges rightly? ( Gen. 18.17-33 )
Is your determinate counsel infallible?
You do not even understand yourself. ( Jer. 17.9-10;
Pray that much more knowing but for the grace of God, there go i.
It is never over for any person until their lot is ashes to ashes and dust to dust.
Let God be God, and know forever your life is but a vapor.
It is sorely wicked, and a vexing evil to judge another.
But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation. Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens. He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion. When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures. Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them. They are vanity, and the work of errors: in the time of their visitation they shall perish. The portion of Jacob is not like them: for he is the former of all things; and Israel is the rod of his inheritance: The LORD of hosts is his name . . . For who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it? Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked. The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
( Jer. 10.10-16; 23.18-20 )
The grass whither and the flower fades, but the Word of God abides forever. While anyone still breaths here below, hope remains.
Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you. Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door. Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps. O LORD, correct me, but with judgment; not in thine anger, lest thou bring me to nothing. ( Jer. 10.23-24 )
Now unto Him who created both nothing and everything, time and eternity, to Him alone be all judgement in righteousness.
Glorify God alone!
| 2010/10/6 4:34|
. . .and sometimes we wonder why oh why we fail in trials . . .
| 2010/10/6 12:23|
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It is my understanding of Hebrews 6 that if you are geniunely saved, and then commit deliberate apostasy, then it is impossible for you to be restored to your former saving knowledge of Christ. A lot of my well meaning reformed brethren will bend over backwards, however, to tell you that Hebrews 6 doesn't mean this.
Jimmy, you don't have to bend over backwards to come to the conclusion of your reformed friends. You just have to read the passage in its historical grammatical context: the context within the passage, the chapter, the book, the history and purpose of the author, and the context of the entire Word of God. It's not that difficult if you just read a passage in its context...unless, of course, you come to the Scriptures with a preconcieved doctrine that you want to read into the text.
| 2010/10/6 13:39||Profile|
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I suggest that Judas fits every descriptive line item of the individual described in Hebrews 6:4-6. If I'm correct, then the passage very easily does not have to apply, and arguably by the entirety of the passage, shouldn't apply to "things that accompany salvation".
Second, the 1 John passage quoted for the sin that leads to death should be read in conjunction with James 5:18 and the passage by Paul in Corinthians dealing with those who fail to judge themselves prior to take the Lord's supper. If you read those passages together, on easily comes to the conclusion that the 1John passage is not referring to spiritual death but rather to physical death.
| 2010/10/6 15:38||Profile|