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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : The Real John Wesley

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 Re:

I have to say I do not agree. The gospel is that Christ saves us from sin. No matter how much Whitefield preached obedience as necessary even after coming to Christ he denied that we are saved entirely from sin. This is indeed a salvific point. If we are not saved from sin then we are not saved.

 2010/10/3 12:50
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

That's fine. Might you show us in Whitefield's own words where he denies Christ saving us entirely from sin?


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2010/10/3 13:14Profile









 Re:

A Letter
from
George Whitefield
to the
Rev. Mr. John Wesley
IN ANSWER TO MR. WESLEY'S SERMON ENTITLED
"Free Grace" Bethesda in Georgia, Dec. 24, 1740

"For these five or six years I have received the witness of God's Spirit; since that, blessed be God, I have not doubted a quarter of an hour of a saving interest in Jesus Christ: but with grief and humble shame I do acknowledge, I have fallen into sin often since that. Though I do not—dare not—allow of any one transgression, yet hitherto I have not been (nor do I expect that while I am in this present world I ever shall be) able to live one day perfectly free from all defects and sin. And since the Scriptures declare that there is not a just man upon earth (no, not among those of the highest attainments in grace) that doeth good and sinneth not (Eccl. 7:20), we are sure that this will be the case of all the children of God."

If you want the link

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/wesley.htm

 2010/10/3 13:30









 Re: The Real John Wesley

okay, very good, whats next?

nothing? excellent.

 2010/10/3 14:22
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

That letter is not about Whitefield's conviction that Jesus is unable to save us from our sin; it is about the humility and candor of a man who could admit his own shortcomings and shameful failures without doubting a saving interest in the blood of Christ. Whitefield humbly admits to have fallen into sin since his conversion, and if you are brutally honest with the contents of your heart, you also will admit to the same.

Whitefield speaks of his inability to "live" defect-free in the flesh while still being hampered in by his adamic nature. This is a war we all face after coming to Christ; the daily mortification of sin and the taking up of our cross. Sometimes we fail -- as Whitefield himself shamefully admits. I too have fallen and sinned since my conversion; and if not in the flesh, then certainly in the heart. Whether it be anger, spiritual pride, an unclean thought, a selfish motive, a thrist for more money and the approval of man, et cetera. The more light God gives a man or woman, the more his faults and weaknesses are illuminated.

For a tremendously advanced brother like George Whitefield, the light God gave him on his sins must have been staggering. And the blood of Jesus was able to cleanse him from each of them upon confession 1 John 1:9.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2010/10/3 14:24Profile









 Re:

I don`t have to hesitate to confess the fact that, after I came to Christ for forgiveness of sins, I failed to continue in the way the Lord commanded and the way my heart and conscience longed. My shame was great that I continued to let the Lord down and I never felt that I was fit enough to come into His presence. I could only hope that the sins that were most likely to defeat me would be dealt with by Him before my time on earth ended which is a long way fromt he peace and joy the gospel promises and I did not know how to get out of this bondage.

I do know now, and holiness preachers like Wesley tell us that we need a further deliverance from the power of sin if we are to walk as He walked and have a clear conscience. Only those who are thus delivered are truly saved according to scripture which says that Christ came to destroy the works of the devil which means that he can no longer work in a man who is free from sin and returned to the state in which man was created.

Some do not accept this, the true gospel, and like Whitefield, however enthusiastic or strenuous in the keeping of the law, they are denying the grace of Christ by whom we are made free indeed if we will only believe.

 2010/10/3 14:59
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

I was with you up until the last paragraph :)

I think we have a misunderstanding here between the dynamic of "Sin" and the event of "sins"; "Sin" being the root of which the born-again believer is dead to (Romans 6:6) in Christ, and the ongoing "sins" of the flesh which require mortification and which are subsequently cleansed in the blood of Jesus Christ when confessed by the believer (1 John 1:7, 9).

Those who have been crucified in Christ are already free from the power of Sin; it is not by their willpower or something they can lay claim to by gritting their teeth and praying for a supplemental "enduement". On the contrary, it is soley of God, who slayed us in Christ before the foundation of the world. This is why, before your conversion, you had enjoyment engaging in sinful activities that you are not permitted by the Holy Spirit to do now.

A person who has died to sin is grieved in his spirit when he succumbs to the lusts of the flesh, and, for example, loses his temper. This isn't something they have to work up and feel bad about: it is immediate and intrinsic to their spirit because they have been killed to the power of sin in Christ and made alive to God. They will repent soon enough, because no one born of God can continue in sin. The pain, the brokenness, the torture, the grief of offending God is too great. And when they do confess their sin and repent, the blood of Christ immediately cleanses both their sin and the guilty conscience.

If you are claiming that something further must be acquired to be "saved", the burden is on you to provide a convincing scriptural refutation, and not noble hearsay from one of Wesley's or Brengle's journals. Years ago, I would have offered you this challenge. I am only involved here now because of the misinformation you were speading.

People need to see both sides of the coin.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2010/10/3 15:57Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

If I remember correctly from a previous SI topic, Krautfrau you believe in 'sinless perfection', which nither Whitfield nor Wesley preached. That is to say you believe that a christian can receive a work of God (made perfect) to enable them to NEVER sin again. I beleive is a huge error and not in keeping with scripture.

This is why you make the points you do. I'm sure I'm right in saying this is your posyion, if not then please correct me and I will appologise.


_________________
Dave

 2010/10/3 16:10Profile









 Re:

Yes thankyou, please apologise. There is no point where we can never sin again. We always retain the ability to sin if we stop trusting in the Lord to keep us from sin. It is a moment by moment walk in faith.

 2010/10/3 16:21









 Re:

If a man is freed from the power of sin then he will not sin. He does not succumb to the lusts of the flesh. He wishes not to sin and Christ provides the power to not give in to temptation, so if he sins then he has chosen to sin which is outright anarchy. I will get back to your other point later.

 2010/10/3 16:28





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