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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Myth #32-Husbands are the Spiritual Leaders of Wives

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EverestoSama
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Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re:

Well said, Ginnyrose.

 2010/9/20 10:29Profile









 Re: Myth #32-Husbands are the Spiritual Leaders of Wives


'Don Francisco himself was divorced and re-married (to someone else) while in ministry.

I dont know the details of why, so we can NOT pass judgement on that, but it may explain some of his more "liberal" thoughts and exegesis on this particular topic.'

While I was reading the article, I didn't know where it came from, and I could see what it was getting at, because of my own complicated relationship past history.

I would also a quote again (somewhere else on this site I shared this) from the report one brother brought back from a (Christian) Men's Breakfast meeting, where part of the discussion had ranged over whether a Christian man should expect to get all the spiritual revelation God intends for both him and his wife. (I think this is partly what the article is addressing.) After some thought, one brother put it this way: 'When I think of all the times [name of wife] has had God's word for ME, I don't know how I could have managed without it, so, no, I don't think God expects a man to get ALL the spiritual revelation for both of us.'


My comment: this brother's testimony being true, there is still a place of leadership (not control unless the wife is unruly) for the man in a marriage, who is himself submitted to Christ. The proper respect from a man to his wife is implicit in the terms of a Christian marriage, and I would expect them to pray together regularly, both sharing with each other what God was showing each of them.

For this to happen, the man and the woman as individuals must already be yoked to Christ (as our sister roadsign has often stated). The brother whom I quoted above, before he was married, separated from his girlfriend for over a year after he was converted, because they had not been Christians. Only after sustained prayer, and, time after she had become a Christian (over a year later), did he have peace about resuming their friendship on new terms, and, eventually, they married.

Naturally speaking, there are very many poor habits of thought ingrained into both men and women by the cultures in which they grow up. God intends to undo every strain of ungodliness in both marriage partners. The antithesis of worldly life is 'husbands, lay down your life for your wife' and 'wives, reverence and obey your husbands'. This simple codification of how to reverse the worlds trends in the marriages of God's people, is bound to challenge the received wisdom of the world. It's the opposite of 'treat 'em mean to keep 'em keen' (male), and 'anything he can do I can do better' (female), neither of which glorify God. This is not to say there are not hardships in marriage, and times when women have to do the men's work, but when these arise, they should be by loving mutual agreement or necessity - not because the man is mean, or the woman is overstepping her role as 'helpmeet'.

Mostly, I think the emphasis in the article on the point of both the man and the woman being in a mature relationship with God as individuals, is crucial to sifting it accurately.

As it happens, I do know something about Don Francisco's divorce and remarriage, which I will not post. However, I can say absolutely with assurance, that he maintained a biblical stance throughout. His introduction to 'Love is not a Feeling', in the Live Concert recording, challenges Christians to love those who are divorcing or divorced, because often they are the most hurting people in the church's midst. And, he challenges christians not to treat divorce as 'the second unforgivable sin'.

The freedom to marry a fellow-believer after a failed marriage, is a precious gift from God to those who receive it. And, this may well mean that neither partner is a young Christian any more. Do we think that those who have been given a ministry by God, should give it up to get married, or, should they remain single, so as to minister?

Surely the New Testament says enough about women in ministry for these to be rhetorical questions, and only if GOD asks a person to be single (to minister), need they concern themselves to remain single. It is GOD who gives ministers to His church, and GOD who chooses their gender, and perhaps more than a little 'ministry' passes between God and marriage partners in the form of prayer for the other's 'weaknesses'. God understands, and He left Himself all the loopholes (as we might see it, in fully a watertight legalistic system), entirely for our blessing.


 2010/9/20 11:05
Ema
Member



Joined: 2008/6/9
Posts: 16


 Re: Myth #32

I have to agree with sojourner7; otherwise you would end up with a two-headed body.

 2011/11/2 2:31Profile
Enochh
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 116
Indianapolis

 Re:

Saints Beware. Much of what is said on this site by the Franciscos is just short of blasphemy. take for example Wendy Franciscos new song hittin Amazon, Borders...

God and DoG

I look up and I see God I look down and I see my dog
simple spelling GOD, same word backwards, DOG
They would stay with me all day, I'm the one who walks away
Both of them just wait for me,and dance at my return with glee
Both love me no matter what-divine God and canine mutt
I take it hard each time I fail, God forgives, dog wags his tail
God thought up and made the dog,dog reflects a part of God
I've seen love from both sides now, Its everywhere AMEN BOW WOW


I mean this her song which the world is just in love with tells volumes of their view of their god....which is not my God.


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Jeff

 2011/11/2 5:31Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I look up and I see God I look down and I see my dog
simple spelling GOD, same word backwards, DOG
They would stay with me all day, I'm the one who walks away
Both of them just wait for me,and dance at my return with glee
Both love me no matter what-divine God and canine mutt
I take it hard each time I fail, God forgives, dog wags his tail
God thought up and made the dog,dog reflects a part of God
I've seen love from both sides now, Its everywhere AMEN BOW WOW



This is not the God of the Bible. God is love, true... AND He is also a God of judgement, wrath and holiness. He does not wag his tail when we sin!

This is horrendous man centered theology.

Don Francisco needs to read The Attributes of God, by AW Pink.

I do not know much about Don's divorce, so I will not comment on it. I do know he has written some tremendous songs over the years... and some very weak ones theologically. This is probably the worst one.

He needs to stick with "He's Alive".

Krispy

 2011/11/2 6:53
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
The myth, based on errant translation and misunderstanding of Scripture, feeds two aspects of fallen human nature - the desire to control other humans, and the desire to abdicate responsibility for our choices.



This is insightful surely! Both human penchants: to control and to abdicate are sinful at the root. And this is certainly a huge issue that threatens relationships - from marriages to churches to entire nations.

Perhaps the point the author is trying to make can be understood better by considering the Reformation mantra: The church had usurped the place of Christ – by functioning as mediator. The parallel would be when a husband takes on a mediatory role – either by usurping it or by a wife abdicating her calling to “sit at the feet of Jesus”.

The argument is weakened in this statement, I think:

Quote:
JESUS is the leader of both man and wife directly, and the two have equal partnership in marriage and ministry.



The theology of the priesthood of all believers here is given an egalitarian application. That is challenged by the household codes in Eph. 5 and 6. There you see that those in the subservient position are addressed first: wives, children, slaves. There is nothing said about seeking social/relational equality. Such a notion would have been ludicrous. Only in our western culture where “equality” is such a big deal, can we even entertain such possibilities. Instead in Ephesians, they were to accept their subservient lot in life and serve their superiors “with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.” Equality is simply not biblical. Jesus set the example: “”He did not consider equality something to be grasped…” Phil. 2:6

Countless marriages are threatened when wives look to their husbands for what Christ wants to do for them in being their spiritual “husband” – head. When that sinful desire (rooted in the Garden) is embedded in their consciences, they manipulate, distance themselves, or take the passive approach. (or , as mentioned, become legalistic about their “submissiveness”). In this way they fail to embrace their God-given calling – to be ambassadors of reconciliation – and peace – ie, to be ruled/filled by the Spirit.

Luther, I think understood it right when he wrote:

“ A Christian man is the most free lord of all, and subject to none;
a Christian man is the most dutiful servant of all, and subject to everyone.”

In other words, this is a universal reality, regardless of culture. We could say:

A truly regenerated wife is the most free lord of all and subject to none;
A truly regenerated wife is the most dutiful servant of all, and subject to everyone.

Grasping such an amazing paradox is surely one of our most challenging theological tasks. Yet we must, so that we can become spiritually mature in a fallen world.

Diane


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Diane

 2011/11/4 19:44Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7469
Mississippi

 Re:

QUOTE:
"God and DoG

I look up and I see God I look down and I see my dog
simple spelling GOD, same word backwards, DOG
They would stay with me all day, I'm the one who walks away
Both of them just wait for me,and dance at my return with glee
Both love me no matter what-divine God and canine mutt
I take it hard each time I fail, God forgives, dog wags his tail
God thought up and made the dog,dog reflects a part of God
I've seen love from both sides now, Its everywhere AMEN BOW WOW"

COMMENT on: "dog reflects a part of God"

This is an outright lie! Nowhere does scripture tell us God made dogs in his image! or even reflect God in any shape or form...


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2011/11/4 21:53Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3394
East TN (for now)

 Re: God and DoG

Quote:
ginnyrose wrote:
COMMENT on: "dog reflects a part of God"

This is an outright lie! Nowhere does scripture tell us God made dogs in his image! or even reflect God in any shape or form...


I don’t know for sure but I don't believe the writer of the song was saying that dogs were created in the image of God but that in a dog’s total acceptance of their master and their being faithful to the end that THAT reflects a part of God.

I could be wrong but I don’t think she meant to turn the whole religious world upside down but to just write a song about her dog.

God bless,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2011/11/5 0:09Profile
Leeza
Member



Joined: 2011/8/13
Posts: 122


 Re:

Giggles, thanks for pointing out the strongman arguments. I think that this is what makes this a difficult discussion sometimes. The thing that the writer of the article in the orignal post is disputing is not the thing that the biblical evidence (much that you have share in your post) implies.
Also, your point that this is a nature and an order thing, not a law thing, is helpful. (by nature, I mean design...His design). I wonder if what has prompted this counter reaction is partly that there are some who are very legalistic who also have developed so rigid "rules" rather that celebrating the biblical revelation of marriage mirroring Christ and the Church (for example).
Again, we as women share full equality with our husbands before God, and by choice and in obedience submit ourselves to the order that He has ordained for His glory.
All that said, I want to make it clear that I share my ideas, feelings, beliefs, desires...plainly and without reserve... with my husband. I have strong opinions, and I fearlessly express them.
And by the grace of God I respect the order He has ordained...many times for my protection, always for His glory.

 2011/11/5 1:12Profile





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