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by ManofGod0000 on 2010/10/2 10:18:18

Do you have any understanding of that piece of scripture brother, have you studied it, do u take it totally literal as it is written.


Finishing writing to Dave and Phil, someone else wanting to use this computer as well, i had planned on just going back to bed, until those words just bubbled up and were poured out (as instructed).
(It's not just something that was spouted off, but first:
~this was the dream that woke me;
~after typing regarding man's constitution relative to the unction given, it happened again as a lucid vision;
~then words were given by God's holy spirit to write.
(hardly ever has this happened in the past, usually being one one (possibly two) of the above three mentioned, most often revealing (to me at least) a greater understanding of what exactly the Bible is saying.

I say to you, Read about where the Rapture theory comes from, that is all I said, I didnt question Ithess4:13, I have heard of the Paul, in my opinion, he is the greatest christian, if you will, to ever walk the face of the earth.
The least of these here and around us is greater.
The first shall be last and the last shall be first.
(WE MUST serve and support them.)

I Thess. 4 leaves only questions for the (post-)modern reader, and even in the greek it creates too many questions to be the basis of any dogma like that, due to it's non-specificity.

BTW, i've read what you wrote, however, from what is known now Darby RE-introduced the concept to help make his dispensational theory have more consistency --though it is still riddled with holes.

But, rapture is NO where in scripture, look it up, google it b4 you just respond, this is what I have been trying to say, since I started posting on this subject....

It has not been looked up on the internet...
except when someone was trying to convince me that a pre-trib rapture was going to occur.
(A series of programs were watched on youTUBE per suggestion. Though they were pre-trib, they convinced this one that much more, such is not the case.)

Being new to SI, that thread was started by yours truly. (If recalled correctly, it was in the "Scripture and Doctrine" folder. It was called either "A Can of Worms" or "Another Can of Worms.")

What is written and taught through these lips and fingertips hardly ever leaves the carton until the Bible (only) facts are clarified by God Himself. . .
. . .unless pride rears it's ugly head again.

(Sometimes still an issue with me, and when i do not bow down to Him and apologize to the bretheren, (now because our Lord has made recognition of it's mechanix so clear to me, He disciplines me most severely. (YES REALLY) The first time it really got out of hand, while crossing the street, i was hit and pulled through the wheel-well of a car, catapulted approximately 40 feet, making a one-point landing on the back of this head, DEAD. You might think being resurrected with a new lease on life, complete loss of memory, being told that i would never even walk again, and all the other injuries sustained in this flesh would keep me on the straight and narrow, but i still slip and fall. Though He has healed the carcass completely since then (1985), this one thing has more than all else opened these eyes in recognizing whose Boss, and it has made me so dependent on Him about everything imaginable . . .
. . .then there's the angel He sent immediately after that incident while still in intensive care. That scared me sooo much that i still literally shake bodily if it flashes through memory again.
That one incident as a whole has made me (literally) fear the Word of God and His testimony, the scriptures, more than all else).

Though you have cited Irving(?) of 200 years past, the church apostate promoted the notion long before John Darby RE-introduced the falsehood.
(It's not recalled who exactly here pointed this out to me about 12(?) weeks ago) It was on a thread started by Matt, (MGUILDER) about dispensationalism.

Anyway, we are on the same page it's thought.

One need look no further than the synoptic Olivet Discourses to be very clear about the time of Jesus' return (Mk. 13, LK. 21, and Mt. 24).

It will be added that the tribulation is not what most folks concieve it to be, as the tribulation is actually is of the time all in the relation to the world's king's surrounding 'Yeru-Shalom' and that Revelation covers the time-frame from when it was written to the end of this kosmos' age and beyond.

We have learned what people in sanctuarties and churches have told or taught us, but get the truth, in all of our getting, lets get an understanding.

If you can tell me that you know Beyond and absolute shadow of a doubt that there will be such an event then , all I can say is God bless you, and we'll move on to another discussion.
No matter how valid the comments of men may seem on scripture, for well over 7 years, the scripture and His revelation of it to me is all that is the source of deep inspection.

In this post, you could have just been told that there is no agreement about a rapture here, but how would that have helped you further?

Please, oh please regard this final exhortation seriously
(especially in regards to end time prophecy)

As deep cries out to deep,

שַׁאֲלוּ שְׁלוֹם יְרוּשָׁלִָם<---Sha’alu shalom Yerushalayim)
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem!

May Israel be unveiled and step out into the Light.

Romans 11.15: “For if their casting Yeshua aside means reconciliation for the world, what will their accepting him mean? It will be life from the dead!”
~the Complete Jewish Bible

(Ending of time) Resurrection YES.
(pre-trib) "Rapture" NO.

Even so, Lord Jesus come swiftly!


 2010/10/2 16:50

Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272


"Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Ever heard of Paul? 1900 years ago.
In Christ: Phillip"

Amen brother - perhaps today



 2010/10/2 18:45Profile

Joined: 2010/6/8
Posts: 191


IT comes even before Darby, I can expound later due to my lack of time at the moment, but your right Phanetheus, the translation needs to be looked into much further.

I have found that there are certain issues of scripture that we must take up with God and He alone in order for us to have clarity and peace about a text or context of scripture.

 2010/10/2 21:56Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707


1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then <epeita> we <hemeis> which <ho> are alive <zao> and remain <perileipo> shall be caught up <harpazo> together <hama> with <sun> them <autos> in <en> the clouds <nephele>, to <eis> meet <apantesis> the Lord <kurios> in <eis> the air <aer>: and <kai> so <houto> shall we <esomai> ever <pantote> be <esomai> with <sun> the Lord <kurios>.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
726. harpazo
Search for G726 in KJVSL
arpazw harpazo har-pad'-zo
from a derivative of 138; to seize (in various applications):--catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

Strong's Greek Dictionary
260. hama
Search for G260 in KJVSL
ama hama ham'-ah
a primary particle; properly, at the "same" time, but freely used as a preposition or adverb denoting close association:--also, and, together, with(-al).

In Christ: Phillip


 2010/10/2 22:56Profile



Having listened to the line of fire broadcast on Dr. Browns Line of Fire recording on the page that Christopher gave us,and reading the (currently) 29 comments, when the Jewish voice airs this debate sceduled for November, i'll be on it like white on rice.

One person, Ray, who comments caused a jolt of laughter in reading, who drew comparison to 4 different views, my own being made into an Elmer Fuddism, coining the word twinitarian.

Anyway, can someone please explain why in reference to God's Spirit, the Bible does not say "God the Spirit" which trinitarians emphasis as though it were in the Bible?

Searching through, we see repeatedly, "the Spirit OF: God, Christ, the Lord
and never "God the Spirit."

Personally, it's thought that this should be clear sign enough that the Spirit is of God, and not a seperate and distinct person. Add to this, there is no name given the Holy Spirit except in indication through title, when Paul writes, "Now the Lord is the -one- Spirit..."


Shalom Phillip,

you are beginning to touch on the area that raises several possibilities as to how this resurrection will occur.
(You have not really touched on the exact phrase that makes these passages so non-specific that several possibilities as to how this will occur could be brought up.)

It's hoped that we will not even get into that, but rather, you are exhorted to look at the full counsel of scripture in relation to this passage, and ignore opinions already promoted that have caused so many divisions which just should not be.

Why would the phrase "and remain" be used with "we that are alive" if there were no something that caused only a remnant of us to still be alive in the first place?

In Revelation it is written about the voice of the angel at the 7th trumpet of God comparable to I Thess. 4.16, and there we see the detailing of this event of which Paul writes.

Most importantly though, in v. 15a, Paul says this information was recieved by 'we' from the Lord's very words, and it would be fool hardy to take this one lone passage and affirm a theory from it that would also neccessitate other non-Biblical beliefs (such as 3 judgements instead of 2).

So what did Jesus say that we know of regarding the time-frame of this event?



the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
~Mk. 13.24-27


ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. . .

. . .AND
there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
~Lk. 21.20-22, 25-27


shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:

shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
~Mt. 24.29-31

What really makes me wonder if they have read their Bibles or are following human opinion, is that most all Rapturists do not look to Jesus say on the matter. Paul says this is who these words were expressed through.

May we all grow
through the grace, wisdom, and knowledge
in Jesus Christ,

 2010/10/3 6:45

Joined: 2007/2/10
Posts: 72
A Little Town In Iowa

 Re: All

Dearest Brother Gregg and Everyone Else,

Sorry I've not replied for a few days... Our little town has hardly been lying still. Au contraire! (sorry, Canadian fellows, for that pitiful attempt at French.)

We just finished up a weekend of beautiful tent revival meetings. It was a huge blessing, but I was heavily involved in some of the nuts-and-bolts side of things and was unable to get on my computer for a few days. :)

Again, it was a huge blessing, and we saw some converts from our local community here! Pray for us, as we seek to disciple them and teach them all things, whatsoever Jesus has commanded us.

Just wanted to get on and say that I've read a bit on the forum here, and appreciate the fact that it again appears to be moving towards discussion as opposed to personal attacks.

This reply is a little scattered, since I'm short on time.

Thank you, Gregg, for being willing to receive. After reading your replies, I can see I misunderstood where you were coming from on quite a few points, and I apologize.

I have an unfortunate habit of reading into people far more than what they actually write, and I has a tendency to get me into trouble. "A fool's voice is known by his multitude of words." :)

While I do take issue with some of your views of the Godhead, again I do not feel it must be divisive. You have got me thinking on many things, and I appreciate it. I tend to be thickheaded and need my brethren to challenge me. Though I am not often a frequent poster here, I do view and pray about many of the things that I see in passing. Sometimes I see something, and feel the Lord telling me to speak up.

Not sure what you meant, though, by posing the Matthew 5-7 Scriptures as being problematic to me, since they are "the standard" by which I strive to examine my life and testimony. Jesus is clearly teaching that we are to go BEYOND the Old Testament examples (which stood in divers washings, et cetera), by living a reality of love in our hearts. That means that, because of the change in our hearts by His indwelling spirit, we are able to now fulfill and supersede the laws that were posed in the Old Testament by the over-arching Law of Love. This will lead to a holy life inside AND out that will exceed the outward-only holiness of the Scribes and Pharisees.

On another note, I'm actually pretty far from an anarchist. Those that know me personally would probably vouch for that I think. :) I pay my taxes and pray for my leaders, and am a member of a conservative, evangelistic, Bible-believing church with Anabaptist roots. I apologize if my comments made me sound a bit libertarian or antinomian. :) Such is the hazard of forums!

As far as accusations of Adventism, neo-Judaism and such, I have had some very negative experiences with both groups and am naturally wanting to prevent other brothers from falling into those traps. Therefore I am a bit sensitive when I see what I feel are leanings towards the Levitical Law and its traps. Please realize, which I think you do, that I am only trying to help us all stay on the Narrow Way.

If feel the Lord is asking you to worship on the Shabbat, go for it! Romans 14 tells me that I must respect your conscience... everyone else, please remember that! If your conscience is sensitive towards this, I will not stand in the way. I wanted to be sure that you were not blindly following error fed to you by some sheep-coated wolf. That's why I posed the questions, and I appreciate your gracious spirit in answering the concerns.

A Flat-Bible concept is something that a dear minister friend of ours has spoken on at some length. Not sure why it's mentioned nowhere on the "all-knowing" Google. :) I probably ought to have explained that a bit... in essence, he says that a "Flat-Bible Theology" is where equal weight is given to both the Old and New Testaments. People that think that way will use the Old Testament to justify following the Levitical Law literally, going to war, taking vengeance, observing strict dietary law, et cetera. They will not compare it with the New Testament standards of loving conduct that Jesus clearly laid out in the Sermon on the Mount.

But I can see now that you seem to be far from that extreme. Just keep close to the Lord and be so, so careful that you continue to find Jesus as your only wisdom, righteousness and sanctification. Thanks for being open, brother!

On a more positive note, let us consider the end of our faith...

I don't know about you, but after this weekend of meetings we've had, I can't wait till we reach Glory! Think about it, brethren! We will see Jesus our Savior in His glory! O what a wonderful day! Come, Lord Jesus!

I want to see us all there. Let us follow Him with all our heart! His grace is sufficient for our every need!

Love to all in Jesus,

Ryan G.

 2010/10/4 12:27Profile


Brother Ryan and those still peeking into this thread,

Most importantly, considering the end of our Faith (in and of Him), it's always gives goosebumps -REALLY- to hear about the advance of God's Kingdom. Let's always pray that the influence of Jesus in the lives of those with whom we cross paths will draw them closer to our Father through the Lord Jesus Christ even like you say. From here, you can know that it's prayed by whatever way possible, through both what we sheep consider both good and bad, that both these and others will continually grow into the annointing of Jesus who died and lives for us.

It's hoped that you yourself will be given opportunity to share in supporting these new disciples.

By ourselves, we don't even cope properly with the world. Oh sure, we might usually manage to meet daily responsibilities and appear to have it all together, but it is just going through the motions without recognizing who holds the very air we breath and our own breath in His hands.

When flying, for most, it is fraught as hour after hour of extreme boredom with just a few intermittent moments of sheer terror. Living on earth can become like that when we do not remain within The One who made us.

When sarcastic and sometimes cynical remarks are heard regarding those who might not have had the opportunity to grow up in Christ as others, it hurts. Not only because these things should not even be aired, but we who do such
--(yes, sometimes i do it; but never without chastening knowing better than that more and more as growth continues)--
see these things that don't seem right because we are to come along side, step in, and share how God has made a way for all of us to remain in Him; if not in example and a good word about walking in the Spirit of Jesus Christ, in prayer.

Count me in.


You wrote:
After reading your replies, I can see I misunderstood where you were coming from on quite a few points, and I apologize.

I have an unfortunate habit of reading into people far more than what they actually write, and I has a tendency to get me into trouble. "A fool's voice is known by his multitude of words." :)

. . . and "in a multitude of words sin is not lacking."

Personal tendency is to try to explain every little detail but in doing this, often, more is left out than if a short response were made. i often excuse it as a means to greater concourse, but often those who do not have an attention span to reach beyond what's in front of the face, it can put them off.

Seldom do i read into what others say, though i often question, and tend to draw out further what is intended in conversaion through this impetuous curiousity.
(Don't think that i did not really get on the nerves of some; especially those in my upbringing, be it teacher, preacher, parent. God be thanked he is not like that. He's the only one who puts up with it, and actually enjoys hearing everything wondered and thought. i question just about everything, not out of doubt, but to gain clearer perspective.)


It is wondered what of personal views regarding dunity that you consider to stand against scripture. This has been thought through thoroughly, though it is only the one's here of SI that have made me consider more possible ramifications of such an affirmation.

One thing that has been noted of my personal dogma in this is that the more the concept is weighed by the bar of intuition, the more i realize how Jesus Christ is affective and effective in all things.

In questioning antinomianism, i was wondering not if, but how anarchistic you were. Iniquity is human tendency, and it's always wondered where each individual draws the line, then says, "don't step over these things i will always decide for myself."

Sadly, americanized christianity tends to take a low view of anyone who does not act as though they are independent, mistaking freedom for the power(?) to choose for myself.

The fact remains, we are of a Kingdom where the King of Kings will one day rule with an iron 'fist'. Grace has never been an excuse to walk any way we please. Rather, it is an opportunity to submit to Him and His law willingly, and our faithfulness Him in Kingdom Law now, He provides not only a better life here and now, but a special place for us in His coming Kingdom.

The issue is not to obtain righteousness by the Law, but fear of God in the heathen as God empowers us through walking according to His standard, Jesus Christ here and now. It's all about living in faith that God's Kingdom has already come, and watching the result accord with this.

What was really meant in asking if you were an anarchist is that knowing God's Kingdom superceeds human standards and results, are you against the (whole counsel of scriptural) Law?

It's interesting that you pin the title 'Levitical Law' on everything(?) within Mosaic codex. Are you inferring that because Moses was of Levi, that Torah was only for the Levites?

Personally, i understand Levitical Law to be only that portion of Mosaic Law which regards religious ordinances ('against us').

To say that following dietary teachings is not needful, is implying that i can eat anything i want no matter how damaging it is to God's Temple.

To say that the moral Law is obsolete is implying that i can do whatever i want and not reap consequences for my actions.

What does the Bible say?

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. (Gal. 6.7-8)

We need remain in the Spirit of Jesus Christ walking as He is or we will do whatever we think is best with devastating results.

In Romans, Paul makes it clear that those not abiding by God's standard are under it's curse. On the other side, he also says we are not indebted to the whole of the Law, i.e., Gal. 5.3. In Hebrews, the fine details of what of the Law was actually transmogrified (metathesis). Nowhere in there do we see the moral code or dietary teachings being transferred/changed at all.

Yes, i am flat Bible as you explain it, yet this view is through Christ our Lord's finished work.

Jesus Christ's willing sacrafice for us was not so we could go do (and even eat) whatever we please without consequence.
Jesus gave up His body for the life of the world and shed His blood towards this union with God.

This New Covenant ratified ALL former covenants (of promise)
--and this steps far beyond Sinai--
rather than abolishing any of them.

The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth. The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd. And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. (Eccl. 12.10-14)

What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose. His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth. The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant. (Ps. 25.12-14)

Consider Mt. 5.16-18 in regards to the following words.

Jesus never raised the standard above the Law. What He actually did was fill in what was missing that leads towards obedience to His written standard. It is only through walking in Jesus can the letter be (not abolished but) fully filled.

Sure Jesus death frees us us from bondage to the Law walking in His spirit; but, "shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God Forbid!"

God's standard has never changed.
The Levitical way (of priestly ordinances, such as baptisms, sign of covenant, sacrafice, attire, theocracy etc...) is what changed.

Human tendency is to look towards the restrictions and think of them alone, but all Torah is for our benefit, and nobody will see the blessings therein without obedience into them, even as Jesus Christ thought, did, and proclaimed.

In Jesus Christ, through His faith(fulness) we are priveledged to walk above the Law, not without it.

Switch up the word 'law-breaker' for 'iniquity' in Mt. 7.23 as iniquity is deciding right and wrong for ourself, disregarding God's standard: the Law.

We do not gain righteousness before God by the Law. The Law was God's first big love-gift (grace) to humanity. By it we may walk more healthy, wealthy, and wisely among men who will not honor God.

God gave the Law so we could live prosperous peaceful lives, not to rule and be ruled by the one we see in the mirror or even other men.

Just keep close to the Lord and be so, so careful that you continue to find Jesus as your only wisdom, righteousness and sanctification. Thanks for being open, brother!
I'm not a loner; but i'm not up for following any movement either. Ya' know, i slip and fall just like everyone else. . .
but we have an advocate who interceeds for us when we stumblingly bumble and miss the mark.

We all fail in many ways, but if we know the holy, good and right thing to do and don't do it, we sin.

Pressing in gives hint as to just how narrow the way really is.

In identifying with Him in His death burial and resurrection, we walk in the spirit of His life, faithful to God.

Yes, "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world."
(That one sin mentioned is not believing God first --to the end.)
Jesus is the pioneer and finality of our faith.
WE remain fixed in Him because nobody can pluck us out of His hand.

Looking towards the end of our one Fath(fulness),
Love, hope, and faith,

We are all born criminals with a death sentence pronounced before we were ever a twinkle in our parents eyes.

Come into the fullness of everlasting relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

He became the slain and living Saviour with us in mind before He formed the world's foundation.

( Considering this just boggles the noggin.)

p.s. Your input is more than just recieved here

edited: errors and thoughts added

 2010/10/5 5:14

Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272


"And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. Rev 22:1-4 (KJV)

After descibing the new Jerusalem in all its glory in Rev 21, John sees his final vision. In the city, there is a throne; there is no temple there, but a throne. The throne of God and of the lamb. And the Holy Spirit proceeding out of the throne, shown to us in more detail as the river of Life, with His fruits and healings.

We are come to the heavenly Jerusalem. This is where we come to Him now in worship: to the throne of God and of the Lamb, and the Holy Spirit brings us there.



 2010/10/7 19:49Profile

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