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jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, the first chapter of genesis decided the trinity...in the beginning God...Jesus was the word spoken by the Father ... john 1 and esp heb 1...spoke in times past by the apos and prophets has in these last days spoken unto to us by Son...alpha and omega are the alphabeta in greek ... and the Spirit hovered.i know these things and havebeen studying for 45 yrs. and know less now than when i was 30.jimp

 2010/9/18 10:42Profile









 Re:

The fact that trinitarianism goes beyond natural and revealed theology does not make oneness/modalism the correct alternative.

If arianism is actually false, it's not like non-arians are suddenly worshiping the entire pagan pantheon by saying God has a divine son.

The whole mess seems to result from not wanting to say Jesus had a beginning on the one hand and from not wanting to say that there is more than one divine being on the other hand.

 2010/9/18 11:19









 Re:

by naatmi on 2010/9/18 7:19:23

The fact that trinitarianism goes beyond natural and revealed theology does not make oneness/modalism the correct alternative.

=================================================

How about two?
the Father and the Son:
their spirit being one.


Love, Hope, and Faith,
g

 2010/9/18 11:39









 Re:

by Phanetheus on 2010/9/18 8:39:10

How about two?
the Father and the Son:
their spirit being one.
===================================

Yes, at least two. That much is obvious to me, though what a surprise it was when I first read the new testament (coming from RC trinitarian background). But I can't say much regarding the holy spirit at this point.

 2010/9/18 11:53
Renoncer
Member



Joined: 2010/6/26
Posts: 483


 Re:

Friends, I plead with you to consider the importance of this issue.
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. (1 Timothy 4:16)

When we are told to baptize into the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, it has serious implications concerning God’s being. It goes along the same lines as Jesus being accused of blasphemy by the religious leaders for making Himself equal to God. It also aligns with the peculiar notion of the Word being WITH God, and the Word BEING God. If the Holy Spirit was simply a different impersonal form of God, then it would not make any sense to speak of Him as distinct from the Father. The same is true of the Son. This applies to any Trinitarian formulas (Matthew 28:19, 2 Corinthians 13:14, 2 Corinthians 1:21-22, Galatians 4:4-6, etc.). Moreover, when Jesus says that He will ask the Father to give us the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that these three are distinct, and that they interact with one another, in a similar way that we see this interaction being demonstrated at Jesus’ baptism. We cannot deny these truths of Scripture. To deny the deity of Christ would be to reject God (John 14:6-10, 1 John 2:23, John 20:28-29). And the same applies to the Holy Spirit, since He is spoken of at par with the persons of the Father and the Son (Romans 8:9-16). This is not to be taken lightly (2 Peter 2:1). In the same way, the Scriptures vehemently affirm that God is one, that there is only one God (Mark 12:29, Isaiah 44:6). To deny this would be idolatry.

Therefore, to deny the divine person of the Son or of the Holy Spirit, or of the Father, would be to reject God. To deny the oneness of God would be idolatry. If you have any other view of God, guess what, you are not worshipping the true God, you do not know God.

I would caution anyone who is so captured by the concept of revival that he has missed the most important thing, that is, who God is. When Mormons pray for revival, they are praying to a false god, because they reject the full deity of Jesus Christ. When Muslims pray to Allah, they are praying to a false god, because they reject the full deity of Christ. When Unitarians pray, they pray to a false god because they reject the exclusive way in which God has revealed Himself, that is, in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. When so-called Christians say there is more than one God, or that God is not distinct in the persons of the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit, I am very concerned.

Let us not forsake the most precious and crucial doctrine of God as revealed in His holy Word, which cannot be broken, for the sake of spiritual experience or for the sake of revival.

This plea is given unto you with the uttermost affection. Let not my strong stance be mistaken for any lack of love. I pray that God will help us to remain on the right path, and to avoid the way of destruction. Amen.

 2010/9/18 12:08Profile
ManofGod0000
Member



Joined: 2010/6/8
Posts: 191


 Re:

Renouncer,

Trust me, I have been "attempting" to be a Christian believer for over 20 years, I say that with grace, but What I intended here was a simple and successful debate which has been quite harmonious, but I in no means limit the Almighty by my shallow thinking as a human, I am just quoting His word and His divine plan for our lives.

Knowing God is far beyond a concversation about the trinity or His Oneness.

So, I dont believe anyone is attempting to cross any lines here for the sake of doctrine, I hope not...
For man definitely looks at the outward, but God looks intently to the inner depths of a man.

There it is that you and I are judged.

What a mighty God we serve, Majestic, especially majestic when He declared that He is Alpha and Omega.

love and peace

 2010/9/18 19:02Profile
ManofGod0000
Member



Joined: 2010/6/8
Posts: 191


 Re:

Let me also complete my stand here if you will by stating that the Almighty God needs NO one to defend Him, He is God all by Himslef rather when HE was dealing with any of the prophets, Jesus obediently going to the cross and raising HImself up from the tomb as HE declared or the Holy Spirit exhibiting his effects upon our lives today

God needs no defense

love yall Saints, this is definitely a special place.

 2010/9/18 19:07Profile









 Re:

by Renoncer on 2010/9/18

Friends, I plead with you to consider the importance of this issue.

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. (1 Timothy 4:16)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phaney:
To take that verse and claim that it is in reference to the dogma of the trinity seems a bit out of order.

Think about what Paul states in reference to "the doctrine" being both able to both "save thyself, and them that hear thee." He is speaking in reference to salvation. He is not writing about trinitarianism dogma --(unless of course--which is hardly unusual)-- i missed something. Galatians 1.8-9 and 2.20 are the imperatives of this "the doctrine."

Nobody but nobody is saved because they continue in the dogma of trinity.

I may not understand how this issue is important, as knowledge about this has little to do with any form of salvation from God, be it:
bodily,
the seat of affections: the heart and/or soul
relational,
financial,
etc...
all we need do is cry out to Jesus depending on Him alone, and He, our God delivers, restores, and preserves mightily.
==========================================

R:
When we are told to baptize into the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, it has serious implications concerning God’s being. It goes along the same lines as Jesus being accused of blasphemy by the religious leaders for making Himself equal to God. It also aligns with the peculiar notion of the Word being WITH God, and the Word BEING God. If the Holy Spirit was simply a different impersonal form of God, then it would not make any sense to speak of Him as distinct from the Father. The same is true of the Son. This applies to any Trinitarian formulas (Matthew 28:19, 2 Corinthians 13:14, 2 Corinthians 1:21-22, Galatians 4:4-6, etc.).

------------------------------------------------------------------------
P:
You didn't mention the passage in I Jn. 5, yet this and the other passages mentioned above are addressed indirectly in the following comment. If you wish to cover the other passages you mentioned one by one, we can do that.

This one passage is a starter only because it cuts away the foundation of this dogma at it's root.

( this is a repeat from p. 3 of the thread "I found this debate interesting "Trinity in the Old Testament"
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=34842&forum=36&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0 )


<> <> <> <> <> <> <>

[(...and Rainman deserves response about all this on that thread...)]

<> <> <> <> <> <> <>


Matthew 28:19
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

Having read several mss., not all of them state this; but that's beside the point, this is the recieved text through the accepted standard of Roman Catholicism handed to Anglicans so it must be valid, right?

Welllll... anyway, The verse above it states that the Spirit that is God that dwells in us is Christ, whom is none other than Jesus currently enthroned with the Father...
so this means that if this is indeed a formula, which is seriously doubted that this validates the baptism of John by changing names, we are to...what???

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
a bit of history
(don't ask me to cite this because it was researched years ago and this was recognized as a mere sideline note, and not the basis of study which was how the invented dogma of trinity came to use. i'm not putting up proof as this really is not an important issue (If it were it would have been proclaimed from Gen to Rev.)

When the Bible was translated into the 7 King James versions, all of them used the word baptism, which is actually an English rendering of a Greek word, simply for fear of upsetting the King for synonymously rendering a word such as 'drowing' or 'immersing' or 'engulfing' or 'dunking' in replacement of 'baptising'.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

As well, 'in the name of' bears no marks of exactitude in distinction, but represents a principle of purpose and power relagated in the authority given.

Now with these 3 things in mind:
1. That the word 'baptizo' means 'to immerse';
2. "In the name of" is juat as indistinctive as the titles (not names) identified;
and,
3. The Spirit of God in us is the Spirit of Christ
...it can readily be seen as a verse of principle and not some magickal formulae.

We COULD write it like this:


Matthew 28:19
"For this reason, as you go: in your going teach all nations, englufing them in the purpose and power --(name)-- of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

It's either that or:
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them (in water)in the name of the El, and of the Jesus, and of the Christ:"
...which doesn't agree with what they did in Acts during water baptism, of accounts mentioning the name used, they were baptising them in the name of Jesus. (which would make perfect sense for the oneness/apostolic folk, who consider Jesus the Father and the Son...
(...and i'm my own grandpa).

(It's hoped that this settles the issues of 'formula' in the mind of anybody questioning)
============================================

R:
Moreover, when Jesus says that He will ask the Father to give us the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that these three are distinct, and that they interact with one another, in a similar way that we see this interaction being demonstrated at Jesus’ baptism. We cannot deny these truths of Scripture. To deny the deity of Christ would be to reject God (John 14:6-10, 1 John 2:23, John 20:28-29). And the same applies to the Holy Spirit, since He is spoken of at par with the persons of the Father and the Son (Romans 8:9-16). This is not to be taken lightly (2 Peter 2:1). In the same way, the Scriptures vehemently affirm that God is one, that there is only one God (Mark 12:29, Isaiah 44:6). To deny this would be idolatry.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
P:
You might want to look at that the debate thread mentioned above ( on the first page) in regards to personage.

Of course Jesus spoke of any form of God as distinct and seperate from Himself while dwelling here. Did you know that Jesus always called himself the 'son of man' and never the 'Son of God' while on earth? Though He identified Himself in relation to the Father and His own spirit being God, it was only via comparison in analogy.

The Spirit of God is spoken of at par with Jesus Christ and not the Father, though Yahshuvah is the physical representation of the Father in His spirit, (being within one another), thus the need for a dove as a physically percievable representation of His spirit.

This hardly negates what He said in Jn 3:
11
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven,

...even the Son of man which is in heaven...

On earth and still in heaven
...hmmm...

This will be offered for consideration:
Jesus took on the form of a man in every aspect though He always had legions of angels at His beck and call. He never claimed divinity though He repeatedly revealed His name. "I AM" . . .
. . . which the orthodox church of that day could not accept

*Phany sits pondering, then drawing comparison to current held opinions about God and what He declares*

The comparative analogy of the Holy Spirit's relation to Jesus in John 14 - 16 is just such an instance. He speaks of of Himself and His spirit, and everything that is mentioned of this spirit of the Holy One is known of Jesus Christ in: person, principle, and proclamation.
============================================

R:
Therefore, to deny the divine person of the Son or of the Holy Spirit, or of the Father, would be to reject God. To deny the oneness of God would be idolatry. If you have any other view of God, guess what, you are not worshipping the true God, you do not know God.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
P:
You will have to show where the scriptures state that the Holy Spirit is a person seperate and distinct from Jesus before you will make any headway with the one typing this. Jesus or the apostles never taught that idea.

(you will do well to consider the Hebraic words for 'one' and consider their meaning in the context of what you are saying. The Romans and the Greeks couldn't get their heads around it and most 21st century people can't either. Of course, most all cannot even get their heads around two becoming one flesh, so to speak beyond even this simple fact seems speculative at best.)

We know that the Holy Spirit was seperate and distinct (only according to human perspective) during Jesus' earth walk in the fulness of time, yet through His annointing as Messiah, the Christ, not only were his body and heart resurrected glorified, but His spirit was also. Of the lamb slain are possessed the seven spirits of God!
============================================
R:
I would caution anyone who is so captured by the concept of revival that he has missed the most important thing, that is, who God is.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
P:Let this be added to that:
Jesus' is God's revelation and manifestation to the whole world, and anything which is not pointing back to Him and what has been accomplished through His completed work at Golgatha is not His spirit but another.

For these purposes His spirit is here:
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will:
1) reprove the world of sin,
[ v. 9--> Of sin, because they believe not on me; ]

2) and of righteousness,
[ v. 10--> Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; ]

3) and of judgment:
[ v. 11--> Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. ]

Jn. 16.7-11
============================================

R:
When Mormons pray for revival, they are praying to a false god, because they reject the full deity of Jesus Christ. When Muslims pray to Allah, they are praying to a false god, because they reject the full deity of Christ. When Unitarians pray, they pray to a false god because they reject the exclusive way in which God has revealed Himself, that is, in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. When so-called Christians say there is more than one God, or that God is not distinct in the persons of the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit, I am very concerned.

Let us not forsake the most precious and crucial doctrine of God as revealed in His holy Word, which cannot be broken, for the sake of spiritual experience or for the sake of revival.

This plea is given unto you with the uttermost affection. Let not my strong stance be mistaken for any lack of love. I pray that God will help us to remain on the right path, and to avoid the way of destruction. Amen.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
P:

Anyone who claims to love another yet fails in rebuke is just plain hateful or pseudo-apathetic, whether out of tolerance, just getting along, or not caring at all. Tolerance is not forebearance. Just getting along is not agreeing to disagree. Not caring is not kind and tenderhearted.

(let's not get into false religion)


You state that the Spirit of God is a person distinct and seperate from the Father and the Son.

If this is fact, consider the following and please provide an answer that has scriptural backing to it:

God says my people shall know my name.

We know the name of the Father and we know the name of the Son. If the Holy Spirit is a distinct and seperate person from the Father and the Son, what is His name?



Who is Lord?

Jesus said ," "you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you (at) liberty," and again, "I AM...the truth."

It's thought that Paul is pretty clear in stating who God's spirit manifest to us is when he penned in II Cor. 3.17, "Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."

Jesus is God's representative and manifestation to us.
Considering this, how could the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of the Lord, the Holy Spirit/Ghost, be anyone other than Jesus?



It is proper to think and speak about the Father and Son as distinct and seperate though 'one'.

It is improper to think and speak about their spirit towards us(in and of Christ Jesus) as distinct and seperate from Christ Jesus.

Where are we told in scripture to pray to the Holy Spirit, and since not, why not?



Search the scriptures and pray about these things.


Agapeo,
g

 2010/9/18 21:40
davidc
Member



Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re: Michael Brown and James White defend the doctrine of the Trinity

The Trinity (for edification only)

Just finished reading Zechariah (slowly). In chapter 4 there is a beautiful picture of the Trinity

"And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep, 2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof: 3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof. 4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord? 5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord" Zech 4:1-5 (KJV)

Then in verses 6 to 10 the angel speaks of how Zerubbabel has started rebuilding the house of God and that he will finish it.

"Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? 12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? 13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. 14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth." Zech 4:11-14 (KJV)

The candlestick all of gold can only speak of Christ the Light of the world. The two olive trees on either side of the candlestick, to me speak of the Father (grace, grace unto it v7); and the Holy Spirit (...but by my spirit v6). They are intimately and organically connected to the candlestick from their branches to it's pipes and bowl, all as one being and one vision.

Verse 12 says the olive branches through the two golden(heavenly) pipes empty the golden(heavenly) oil out of themselves. This is our God, who doesn't just pour out on us, but glories in emptying Himself, as He did into Christ. All the fullness of the Godhead bodily dwells in Him. and we....

I know that there are other interpretations of the olive trees including:
a) Joshua and Zerubbabel - but they only forshadow our lord as king and priest after the order of Mechizadek
b) The two witnesses of Revelation chapter 11. However, reading carefully, they are described as 'the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth' Rev 11:4 (KJV) ie not a complete fulfillment.

Bon Edification


_________________
david

 2010/9/19 1:03Profile
Renoncer
Member



Joined: 2010/6/26
Posts: 483


 Re: davidc

Davidc,
Je te remercie de prendre le temps d’écrire un message pour l’édification des saints. C’est un plaisir de voir que tu veux proclamer la vérité, surtout en ce qui a trait à l’identité du seul et véritable Dieu. C’est une des questions les plus fondamentales de la foi chrétienne. C’est un peu bizarre de voir que certaines personnes sur ce site ont de terriblement fausses doctrines. Heureusement, je ne crois pas que ça s’applique à la majorité. Par contre, ça démontre que certaines personnes se sont égarées du droit chemin pour suivre des faux enseignements, ce qui est prédit dans les Saintes Écritures.

« Il y a eu parmi le peuple de faux prophètes, et il y aura de même parmi vous de faux docteurs, qui introduiront des sectes pernicieuses, et qui, reniant le maître qui les a rachetés, attireront sur eux une ruine soudaine. Plusieurs les suivront dans leurs dissolutions, et la voie de la vérité sera calomniée à cause d'eux. » (2 Pierre 2:1-2)

Que le Seigneur te bénisse avec abondance.

 2010/9/19 4:56Profile





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