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todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

In reading some reviews of "On the Incarnation" I saw the comment:

"There are also no notes on scriptures cited. We can guess at the biblical references, but the references to Apocryphal books, or the pseudipigraphical "Pastor of Hermas" may be confusing to some."

But this was in review of a different edition. Does yours have any notes on Scripture? And what do you think of the "references to Apocryphal books, or the pseudipigraphical 'Pastor of Hermas'"?

So Athanasius didn't include Scripture references in this work?

I think I will probably still get the book but want to get the best edition. I have emailed the bookstore to find out more.


 2003/11/16 18:59Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Hey Todd,
Did a search by IBSN # (0-913836-40-0) on the web via Amazon and was returned to SVS Press

[url=http://www.svots.edu/SVS-Bookstore/by-section/PAT.html]http://www.svots.edu/SVS-
Bookstore/by-section/PAT.html[/url]

Click on this link and scroll down to the 9th entry and you will find the copy I have, which is revised and has footnotes for scripture (in Roman Numerals) as well as a letter of St. Anthanasius on the interpretation of the Psalms added as an appendix, which has the refrences in context.

For instance "For prayer and supplication, sing Psalms 5, 141 to 143, and 146."

Quote:
And what do you think of the references to Apocryphal books, or the
pseudipigraphical 'Pastor of Hermas'?



Goodness, I haven't read it in a while and besides
I am just a bonehead trying to grasp at stands from minds far advanced. Considering the time he lived in ....I don't have a clue, I'll stop while I am ahead.

Here is something from the Translators preface re: Biblical references....
'were given only where the quotations tallied exactly with our English versions; they were omitted where the Septuagint, which alone St. Athanasius knew, differed from the Massoretic Hebrew upon which our versions rest. Very few other notes were given, because annotation can easily become a hindrance rather than a help, and the modern reader should approach the mystery of Christ as St. Athanasius himself did, "not as a theologian, but as a believing soul in need of a Saviour."

Their ordering system seems a bit confusing.
But the phone number from the book and the one on the site match.
SVS Press Ph # 1-800-204-2665

Let me know if there is anything else I can do.




_________________
Mike Balog

 2003/11/16 22:53Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

The Christian Classic Ethereal Libary has lots of ancient documents online, including lots by Athanasius
Lots of the documents are available in pdf which means you can use pdf search functions.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2003/11/17 5:37Profile
Agent001
Member



Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

Athanasius obviously did not put in references to the Bible because the chapter and verse divisions of the Bible were not added to the scriptures until much later!

References to apocyphal books were not uncommon among early Christian writers. Just like we would quote our favourite devotional and spiritual books today, they did so in their works too.

Note also that the first clear acknowledgement of all 27 books within the New Testament actually came from Athanasius. So Athanasius actually contributed to the development of the canons of the New Testament. Therefore, even though I did not study his works extensively, I believe he would have built up his theology primarily based on the New Testament canon as we know it today, and not on extracanonical materials.

Back to your original question:
Some scholars think that the expression in Luke 11:49, the "Wisdom of God", is a personification of an attribute of God that refers to his wise will.




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Sam

 2003/11/17 10:25Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Thanks Agent001 for the clarifications and Ron for bringing to mind once again an excellent resource. CCEL.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2003/11/17 11:12Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Yes, much thanks to all of you guys.

Agent001,

Quote:
"Athanasius obviously did not put in references to the Bible because the chapter and verse divisions of the Bible were not added to the scriptures until much later!"

Seems so obvious, doesn't it? That factor didn't even enter my mind.

Quote:
"References to apocyphal books were not uncommon among early Christian writers. Just like we would quote our favourite devotional and spiritual books today, they did so in their works too."

Once again, great point. So did they consider them historically accurate and refer to them as fact or what? Did they not make the canon because they felt they were more historical accounts but not inspired, or what?

Quote:
"Some scholars think that the expression in Luke 11:49, the "Wisdom of God", is a personification of an attribute of God that refers to his wise will."

Interesting. What other examples are there of attributes of God that are personified?

If an attribute can be personified, is it not in some sense a person? So the Wisdom of God speaks and encourages and exhorts it seems (Prov. 8). What if "it" felt sad or happy? What does it take for "it" to be considered a person?

What is it about the Holy Spirit that makes Him a person?


 2003/11/17 21:15Profile
Agent001
Member



Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

Todd:

Canonicity is often thought of as the fulfillment of some criteria similar to

the following:
(1) apostolic origin (apostolicity)
(2) universal acceptance (catholicity)
(3) consistent message (orthodoxy)
(4) liturgical use (liturgy)

While historical accuracy is important, I think the canon (which literally means "rule") was developed with the primary concern of establishing the authority of the canonical writings as a rule of faith and life for all believers. While extracanonical writings can be historical accurate and even inspired, they do not carry the authority of the canon.

The personification of Wisdom is often a characteristic of the Hebrew literary genre known as the wisdom literature, so I am not surprised that the same usage appears in the NT. I found a good article on "wisdom" in the following website (it's an entry from the Harper's Bible Dictionary). By the way, it also deals with Luke 11:49.

http://www.bibletexts.com/glossary/wisdom.htm

As for the question of why the Holy Spirit is a person in the trinity and not merely a personification of God's power, I have to study further. Perhaps others could help?


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Sam

 2003/11/18 11:38Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I think the canon (which literally means "rule") was developed with the primary concern of establishing the authority of the canonical writings as a rule of faith and life for all believers.


Just a perspective on canonicity. We must be wary of giving the councils more power than they ever had. I think the councils 'endorsed' rather than 'established' the authority of 'canonical' books.

In a sense we are only talking about the New Testament as Christ's endorsement of the OT Scriptures is 'authority' enough for Christians.

This view was held by FF Bruce and an electronic version of his book is now online: The New Testament Documents: are they reliable? The relevant chapter is called The Canon of the New Testament. This is a very valuable book and well worth reading online.

I think the councils' main criteria was that certain books were universally accepted by the churches and the councils added their 'amen' to that. If we give them more authority than that we misundestand the nature of the councils and give support to the Roman Catholic notion that 'the church' has authority over the Bible, rather than the opposite.

If you would prefer a pdf version(makes it much easier to read), I have created one for my own use with a simple TOC, just drop me an email.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2003/11/18 13:10Profile
Agent001
Member



Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

Philologos:

Quote:
Just a perspective on canonicity. We must be wary of giving the councils more power than they ever had. I think the councils 'endorsed' rather than 'established' the authority of 'canonical' books.



I totally agree with you. I think I didn't express myself clearly in my previous post, so let me clarify here.

I was not referring to the ecumenical councils in my previous post. What I had in mind all along was rather, the collective testimony of the saints. The canon was naturally developed throughout the first few centuries as the early Christians, by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, discern in these early Christian writings the authority as the rule of faith and life among all believers. The ecumenical councils simply affirms what was recognised by this collective testimony.

Thanks for the offer -- I already have a copy of F.F. Bruce's work. The four criteria that I have cited should all fall within the scope of this work; they are some of the factors that the early Christians would consider to decide what constitutes the word of God.


_________________
Sam

 2003/11/20 12:33Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Valuable Information Resource

Any following the thread on the canon might like to visit The Bible Researcher.

There is heaps of information on these pages and all presented in a moderate and fair manner. Whatever your views on the canon or the best translation, a visit to these pages will be beneficial.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2003/11/25 11:16Profile





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