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Joined: 2009/3/13
Posts: 55



 2010/8/20 7:42Profile

Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 530
America's Heartand


I like Watchman Nee's writings very much. However, in this case does it not seem that he is using a simple personal observation as a belief statement without any scripture backing it at all. I couldn't think of scripture to support his thought.. although admittedly it is early and some may come to mind later. However... these did come to mind that appear to be in contrast to his statements.

Jacob Wrestles With God
That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two maidservants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. 23 After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak." But Jacob replied, "I WILL NOT LET YOU GO UNLESS YOU BLESS ME." The man asked him, "What is your name?" "Jacob," he answered. Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, [e] because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."
Jacob said, "Please tell me your name."
But he replied, "Why do you ask my name?" Then he blessed him there. So Jacob called the place Peniel, [f] saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared." The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel, [g] and he was limping because of his hip. 32 Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob's hip was touched near the tendon. Gen 32:22-31 NIV

Another example that might be considered is the woman with the issue of blood, or how about this one...

5Then he said to them, "Suppose one of you has a friend, and he goes to him at midnight and says, 'Friend, lend me three loaves of bread, 6because a friend of mine on a journey has come to me, and I have nothing to set before him.' 7"Then the one inside answers, 'Don't bother me. The door is already locked, and my children are with me in bed. I can't get up and give you anything.' 8 I tell you, though he will not get up and give him the bread because he is his friend, yet because of THE MAN'S BOLDNESS[e] he will get up and give him as much as he needs. (NOTICE THE MAN REFUSED TO LEAVE UNTIL HE GOT THE BREAD)Luke 11:5-8 NIV

How about this...
The entire account of the outpuoring of the Holy Spirit in the book of Acts occoured in the context of Jesus followers REFUSING TO LEAVE UNTIL THEY RECEIVED THE PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. Jesus told them to do that very wait (refuse to move) in a specific place (Jerusalem) UNTIL THEY RECEIVED THE PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

I am not making a doctrine out of it. However, it does seem that in light of just these few scriptures off the top of my head that perhaps Nee paints this incident with far to broad a brush. It does appear that there are times when absolute refusal to be disfocused, or move, until we receive a promise is not only allowable but EXACTLY what God wants to see from us. It is not presumptious to believe that the King of Creation will keep His covenant agreements if we will ask in faith, refuse to be moved, and not be willing to settle for less than He promised.

Just my 2 cents

 2010/8/20 9:41Profile

Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2737
Phoenix, Arizona USA


By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
(Hebrews 11:5-6)

Faith pleases God, faith that diligently seeks Him is rewarded.

He is the reward.

In Christ,


Ron Halverson

 2010/8/20 11:21Profile


That is so dangerous, if you really realize the peril of that statement, to put it in simpler words, that's putting God in a box! God will not be put in a box, if you do get your request fulfilled though 'forcing' God, was it really from God?

It's taking God at His word!

God can be put in a box as was the case of Jesus Christ, "God was in Christ Jesus reconciling the world unto Himself".

By saying that God cannot be put in a box is limiting His ability to do the impossible.

God would have us "Force" Him to do many things, the sad thing is that very few take Him up on the offer.

When you consider the woman and the unjust judge how that she demanded daily that that unjust judge do what is right, Jesus encouraged all that heard to do the same thing with God when petitioning Him. Keep hounding Him until you get your answer. And it doesn't matter if it's a want or a need.

Jacob said to the Angel that wrestled with him, "I won't let you go until you bless me".

There have been old time preachers that got so desperate with God that they shut themselves in and demanded that they hear from heaven a sure word that would transform them into an oracle of God.

Yes it is dangerous, but the cost to go all the way with Jesus is dangerous.

Joshua during a heated battle with the enemy put God on the spot by commanding the Sun and the Moon to stop their rotation. Such faith, such boldness that God heeded to Joshua bidding and it was never done so again.

We have to get this idea like the heathen that worship dumb idols in that He is unreachable. God is a servant. The words of Jesus are, "To every one that is humble, he shall be exalted." God was in Christ Jesus humbled Himself and became a man, humbled Himself further and served men, humbled Himself even further by not raising a hand against anyone that put forth a hand against Him. He humbled Himself even more further as an obedient servant even unto death.

 2010/8/20 14:32

Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7471


I, too, have heard of people saying that they will not quit fasting and praying until they see the desired results. The thing prayed for still has not happened. Are they still fasting? Not that I know of. Praying? I am sure.

Yes, I know what you are saying. One must be very careful when making statements that you "will not do thus and such until..." This is presuming upon the future and we have no control over it. God does work but His timing is not ours and he also will not violate a person's will.

My thoughts...


Sandra Miller

 2010/8/23 9:54Profile


I think the dangerous part that this article refers too is not setting yourself to hear from God by adamant Godly faith, but receiving another power or spirit by in effect demanding that God honor your committment. This is not by faith at all, but manipulation by Presumption; a supreme act of rebelliousness. This is extremely dangerous.

How many multitudes fasted and prayed for a sick or dying loved one, and saw that one enter in eternity anyway. Consider righteous Job, who continually offered prayer for his children. They were all murdered by Satan's wrath. Job's reply "Even though He slay me; YET WILL I WORSHIP HIM."

As far as tarrying for the Baptism of the Holy Ghost; This has been an act of faith for multitudes for millenia, since the Upper Room, but never once successfully with a demand upon Jesus relative to our sacrifice. He does not respond to this kind of foolishness.

Another aspect of this article that needs to be discussed is the impartation of lying and unclean spirits that masquerade as God. These actually use the rebellious soul power of man to further blind him with various manifestations.

The Catholic monasteries and the Eastern mysticism taught there for thousands of years, [ inward meditation, mantra recital, and the asceticism..{viewing the body as evil, and needing to be subjegated..} and the result being the manifestation of KUNDALINI POWER.


Recently, Todd Bentley and the NAR prophets and associates attempted to once more pass this on as orthodoxy. Again, Bentley's objective was to attempt for his audience to believe, and yes, SEEK experience. When this happened, many were infected by the power of darkness, and many still complain today of there connected depression from this "revival."...[ several websites for survivors of Lakeland..]

God gives grace to the humble, and Jesus is satisfied with them, and they are always satisfied with His timing of His Provision. We cannot present the King with our demands, but our petitions. He chooses.

 2010/8/23 12:26

Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2002
Joplin, Missouri


Last weekend I climbed my 10th 14,000 foot peak in Colorado. I was probably in the worst shape I have ever been in on a summit attempt. About 1500 feet below the summit I made the statement that the summit might as well be the moon. I did not physically think I could make it. But, I put one foot on front of the other and determined that I would not give up, would not quit taking steps, until I was at the top. Consequently I gained the summit. I have made such statements spiritually as well. I was not trying to twist God's arm. I knew that God desired to answer my prayer more than I desired it to be answered as what I sought was His will revealed in His word. So I determined not to give up until I received what He had already decreed was His will for me. It was not forcing God, but rather forcing me to be diligent and not quit short of the answer as I had in times past. The result...I received from God.

Heb 6:12
(12) That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Patience is fortitude. It is pressing in until we receive without giving up.


 2010/8/23 20:45Profile


The way Travis puts it is the way it works.

Looking back, it is the persistence and not the demand which yealds fruit.

When we get demanding we are walking in the flesh, and to give God terms and conditions is a reminder of Jeremiah going to the potter's house ..."shall the pot say to the hands that formed it???"

What God promises or even when He comes and asks us what we want is one thing and to demand something without His provocation is clearly another spirit.

"Faith(fulness) comes by listening and hearing through the revelatory-message from God." Rom. 10.17
(tranliterally rendered from gk)

There is a way that is equitable in this, and the book of James sets some parameters (loosely quoted):

"You don't recieve because you do not ask.
You ask and recieve not because you ask amiss: to consume it on your own lusts."

So many believers desire God to tell them about tomorrow, in the sense that they want everything spelled out before-hand. Failing to recognize God's purpose at work in what they are going through at the moment, God does not use them the way HE prefers today. When we get so concerned about the situation we find ourselves in, our attention turns from God. It's not that God doesn't want to do for us more than we can ask or even think. The problem is we have our heads and hearts turned the wrong direction with our eyes and ears focused other than where they should be: JESUS. and this New Covenant He established.

In these instances:
Often, some still hear part or even all of God's revealed message to them, yet it can become partially or wholly misinterpreted because of "what we want God to do" tainting a heart turned purely to God.
(When we do not tell God's message right we dishonor God.)

Observing from the past, myself saying that i have 'prayed through' is now recognized to be more often than not a roundabout way of saying, "i finally got all my trivialities out of the way so i could finally be still and know He is God."

To say this is wrong is not neccessarily so; however, being content with: the food that is placed before us... having clothing and shelter... many things that constitute our fleshly desires and coveteousness would not be our supplication.

We hope in Jesus coming and awaiting His arriving, we follow in His steps ...step by step ...and repeating what Travis said, "Patience is fortitude. It is pressing in until we receive without giving up."

Shalom and Grace to you all
in Jesus Christ,

And he (Jesus) said unto them, "Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth."
Lk. 12.15

But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
I Tim. 6.6-8

Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
Mt 6.31-34

Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness. Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way. Stablish thy word unto thy servant, who is devoted to thy fear. Turn away my reproach which I dread: for thy judgments are good. Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness.
Ps. 119.36-40

Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Heb. 13.5

Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Phil. 4.5-7

Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Two things have I enquired of thee; deny me them not before I die: Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me: Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain.
Prov. 30.5-9

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Col. 3.5-7

 2010/8/23 22:16

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