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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Need help answering a question that my brother brought up about molecules and God's existence

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bible4life
Member



Joined: 2009/1/21
Posts: 1558
Locport, Illinois

 Need help answering a question that my brother brought up about molecules and God's existence

My brother does not believe in God and he says their no proof of its existence. He said he had a friend's brother who is a rocket scientist who told him that everything started with molecules that basically formed the whole earth, he was trying to make these molecules into some God. I tried to say that material could not bring everything into existence, that something outside the material world had to bring material into existence, but he said that is what the molecules did, and we went back and forth debating and it seemed hard to get him to change his mind because this man was supposedly one of the smartest mans in the world. Can anyone give me answers to explain his fallicies in this argument, if their is a way to explain this to him to give him understanding please help. Pray for him his name is Brad.


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John Beechy

 2010/8/5 19:42Profile
mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re: Need help answering a question that my brother brought up about molecules and God

My only question for him is where did the molecules come from? I will pray for him but I know in these types of arguments it generally takes God to soften someones heart to receive the truth. We also find in scripture that man's absolutely best day of knowledge and intelligence doesn't even come close to the most foolish day of God's :) My only suggestion is to not let these kind of things ruffle our feathers and cause us to doubt our own faith, if you faith in the Lord is strong enough then its okay but to not go head long into a debate that my cause you to doubt yourself and God if you already know that your brother is still willing to reject the truth for a man's theory. Be interceeding deeply for your brother and your brother's professor friend.


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Matthew Guldner

 2010/8/5 20:04Profile









 Re: Need help answering a question that my brother brought up about molecules and God

The third law of thermodynamics will put his, and any evolutionists theories in a tailspin spiraling out of control.

Due to the stachocistic (sp?) nature of matter, everything is dependent on the other factors and ultimately is falling apart.

It's called entropy.

How can things come together if their nature is to fall apart?

How's that?

It would take a designer to bring it all together in the first place since it is continually deteriorating, wouldn't it?

How's that?
g

 2010/8/5 21:30
Giggles
Member



Joined: 2009/12/12
Posts: 591


 Re:

Phantheus, isn't that the 2nd law of thermodynamics? It is also known as the law of decay. It means everything is winding down in the universe. If we rewind the tape of history, it would mean that everything had a beginning. This coupled with the first law of thermodynamics, which states matter cannot create itself, is usually a pretty solid apologetic for Christians to utilize. If this huy really knows his stuff however, he will probably argue that these laws have only been observed in closed systems, of which the universe is not considered.

I would, as suggested, beg the question where did the molecules come from. Look at other traditional arguements for the existence of God by Aquinas:

http://www.yale.edu/adhoc/etexts/aqproof.htm

These are time-tested and really haven't been refuted satisfactorily. Also, consider attacking the evolutionary model itself with things like the anthropic principle, irreducible complexity, and micro vs macro evolution. And where do things like emotions come from if everything is from molecules? How do abstracts like love, hate, and beauty come into play?

Deep down this man does believe in God. He is lying when he says he doesn't(Rom. 1:18-20) and acting foolish (Ps. 14:1).


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Paul

 2010/8/5 23:41Profile
jimp
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Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hy, cuwd u talk about sumpen i can understood.loljimp

 2010/8/6 3:57Profile
Goldminer
Member



Joined: 2006/11/7
Posts: 1178
Alabama

 Re:

I think I hear giggles giggling ;0)


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KLC

 2010/8/6 8:58Profile
Areadymind
Member



Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re:

If you must discuss this on a biological, scientific level, A.E. Wilder Smith's books can be a huge benefit to help understand the fallacies, and benefits of science from a Christian point of view.

However, if you engage someone on an intellectual level, and convince them intellectually of a truth, they will only be as convinced as your argument allows them to be. Apologetics are better for people whom have already given their lives to Christ. The beginning of faith is having a collision with God, not understanding the collisions of molecules.

Believe me.

Share Christs love, let them see your faith, let them see Christ in you, and always center your evangelism around the cross and resurrection of Christ. The gospel itself is the power of God unto salvation. We need to remember this. Have faith in the gospel being able to convince someone of the truth. The Holy Spirit will convict someone of their sin when they see you walking in faith and response to God. It is so simple. Be salty, it makes people thirsty.

These "science" so-called debates can be very unprofitable because scientists themselves do not even know what they know 90% of the time. Their theories change every ten years. So when Christians use flawed scientific reasoning to verify truth, you have done truth a disservice. If you want proof of changing theory, read this article.

http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/25492/

A theoretical physicist in Taiwan is demolishing the big bang theory and stating that the universe is now to be understood as infinite in scope. It sounds as if his views are gaining traction.

When it comes to math, and scientific theory, people are all over the map. So to rely on an understanding like that is to rely on shifting sands literally.

Giggles is right though, understanding the second law of thermodynamics is a "bit" of a help, just make sure you understand it well before you use it. I have heard Christians attempt to use it, but it turned out they really did not understand it all that well. So others were able to pick loopholes out of their arguments.

The reason that the second law is an exception to the rule is because it is a Law. It is not theory.


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Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/8/6 10:01Profile
Areadymind
Member



Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re:

I also forgot to mention that I found a few of A.E. Wilder Smith's sermons here on SI the other day. They are worth listening to. He was such a great brother. I cannot wait to meet him.


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Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/8/6 10:12Profile
EverestoSama
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Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re:

Oddly enough, I have a rocket scientist staying at my house right now. And I'm not mixing words, he actually IS a rocket scientist employed by NASA (a satellite construction supervisor to be specific). He's here on a missions trip in his free time, and I just heard his testimony last night.

He told me he was convicted by the physical presence of Christ and Christ's love that he couldn't explain away with all of his reasoning. In my opinion that's better than any intellectual angle we can try and take regarding salvation. The Holy Spirit can do such a better job of convicting those who consider themselves wise than any reasoning or appeal to the mind that we can come up with.

Anyway, they'll always be spitting out new theories that they think disprove the existence of God, until it's in turn disproved by their own methods, and they have to find another new excuse for their lawlessness.

 2010/8/6 10:54Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1935
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: Need help answering a question that my brother brought up about molecules and God

Actually the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics says that entropy will increase in an isolated system, or one in which there is not energy transfer with its surroundings. For example, if I can insulate a cooking pot so well that there is not heat transfer between the contents of the pot and its surroundings, and if I put in that cup water at 99 deg. C and water at 1 deg. C, the water molecules will exchange energy going from a state of low entropy to a state of high entropy with all molecules having the same energy. But if I allow heat energy from a stove to enter the pot I can increase the energy of the molecules and cause them to change state into a vapor. We see plants grow every year, which is a case of decreasing entropy due to the ability of the earth system to gain energy from the sun. Scientists who do not believe in God will say that the universe will eventually die a "heat death" as the overall entropy of the universe is always increasing since there is only one "universe system".

But I don't think scientific arguments are the issue in this case. This man has decided what he is going to believe. He has chosen one point of view over another and my guess is that deep down his point of view has less to do with science than it does with acceptance or rejection of a God to whom he will one day answer. To believe that matter can give rise to life is very counter intuitive. Nothing in this universe fits that model. It is like saying that a Boeing 747 came into being by random interaction of molecules. I am sure Brad would say that is preposterous, and yet he is proposing that living systems that are orders of magnitude greater in complexity that the 747 happened by chance interaction of molecules. A belief such as this must be by choice as it cannot be by reason (or lack thereof ;-) )

If you want to give him scientific arguments, I would suggest Answers in Genesis or the Institute for Creation Research. These resources are both very good. Many have come to see that the evolutionary and Godless view of origins they have been taught is indefensible and have come to saving faith in Christ as a result. But my guess is prayer and demonstration of the power Holy Spirit and the love of Jesus will be most effective.


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Travis

 2010/8/6 16:49Profile





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