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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Did the angels fall before Adam and Eve (Man)?

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Joined: 2009/1/21
Posts: 1548
Locport, Illinois

 Did the angels fall before Adam and Eve (Man)?

This was something my friend and I were discussing. The serpent tempted Eve. For their to be an evil serpent then someone had to fall who was evil for them to tempt Eve. The assumption is that the serpent was satan and he fell from heaven as Lucifer before the fall of man and tempted Eve. What i am basically getting to is that Satan and the angels fell fom their perfect beings before Adam and Eve fell which brought death to the earth and spiritual death. Because if you go along with the idea that satan fell after adam and eve you our still left with the fact that an evil serpent tempted Adam and Eve, and for their to be an evil srpent then the ssumption would be that the angels had to fall first because nothing good and God would have not tempted Eve to disobey God and lie to them about him, so satan had to fall first. Am I talking about a gap theory no, maybe this happened sometime after ceation i don't know, but their was a serpent that was evil, so maybe in the spiritual if someone falls it still doesn't effect the fall of this world. What does everyone think about this?

John Beechy

 2010/7/3 12:01Profile

Joined: 2007/6/27
Posts: 1573
Omaha, NE

 Re: Did the angels fall before Adam and Eve (Man)?

There was rebellion in heaven before
the fall of man. Satan; in his pride,
tried to usurp GOD from His throne,
and was cast down.
Adam and Eve knew what GOD had commanded
of them: "You must not eat of the tree
of the knowledge of good and evil."
They chose to disobey; and man fall from
innocence and grace into sin and death

Martin G. Smith

 2010/7/3 12:57Profile

Joined: 2007/1/15
Posts: 357

 Re: Did the angels fall before Adam and Eve (Man)?

It would appear from Scripture that the devil and his team fell before Adam and Eve, hence, the plot to cause man to sin against God.
I don't understand the penultimate sentence in your post.
Hope this helps.


 2010/7/3 13:18Profile

Joined: 2009/1/21
Posts: 1548
Locport, Illinois


i am not saying that their was a separate world God created prior, i believe the angels were created along with the first creation but that the angels probably while Adam and Eve were on earth fell and then satan tempted eve being a fallen creature already.

John Beechy

 2010/7/3 14:30Profile

Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1824
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: Did the angels fall before Adam and Eve (Man)?


I think my opinion will probably not square with the majority view, but I believe I have good reason for it. I believe Ezekiel 28 describes Satan in a not yet fallen condition in the Garden of Eden. Isaiah 14 describes Satan as being lifted up with pride (jealousy and envy really) saying that he too would have dominion and authority. What would Satan be jealous of? God? How does the created being become jealous of his creator? He says that he will exalt his throne above the stars of God. If we couple this with what Hebrews 2 and Psalm 8 and other passages says of the dominion that was given to man and to man's place in creation, we begin to see somewhat of Satan's jealousy. If your desire is to be exalted above God Himself, why don't you simply storm heaven and take that place. It is, after all, the only way you are going to get that place. But what if your jealously is due to another created being to whom you have been made a ministering spirit? Hebrews 1:14. What if that being is the "stars" of God that you desire to be exalted above? Do you not then tempt that man into surrendering himself to you? Is that not what happened? Man was originally "god" of this world, but now we see Satan occupying that position. 2 Cor. 4:4.

So I believe that Satan's rebellion did not occur prior to creation, but rather sometime after the creation week in the Garden of Eden when he tempted man. I never could quite lift Rev. 12:7-9 out of its place in future prophecy and assign those three verses to an event that took place before creation.

Just my opinion. I could be wrong, but it is the best fit for scripture as far as I can see it.


 2010/7/3 14:47Profile

Joined: 2009/1/21
Posts: 1548
Locport, Illinois


i see what your saying, good study.

John Beechy

 2010/7/3 16:19Profile

Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK


I think the struggle we have with this is that the angel's story is not the main theme of the Bible. The Bible is, in a sense, the story of man; his creation and fall, his career and God's redemptive purposes. All this properly is the story of the Bible. If you were to imagine a circle representing the Bible you might say this is man's story, but it seems there is a another circle of the angels' story and their circle intersects ours. At that point of intersection of the two circles is where information about the angels comes from. Their fall and future breaks into our story and that is all we really know about them; the rest is speculation. We can try a 'best fit' hypothesis and this is legitimate but we always need to be cautious in our conclusions.

Consequently we know only a tiny part of the angels' story. Enough to explain their part in our fall and redemption but not all the facts. I suspect God works on the old war footing of 'the need to know' principle. If that is true we need to be cautious in making absolute statements about these things.

Some of the old Quakers had a good phrase..."we have no desire to be wiser than what is written". It's may be a good thought to keep in mind.

Ron Bailey

 2010/7/3 16:28Profile

Joined: 2006/3/25
Posts: 27

 Re: Did the angels fall before Adam and Eve (Man)?

twayne good post, i believe i heard this from kent hovind. philo great quote by the quakers btw!

 2010/7/3 21:25Profile

Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean


For the sake of clarity, any view on when the Angels fell is supposition. The bible is awfully quiet about it. However, there are certainly some interesting theories out there. One question I have heard asked, and I think it is worth repeating is, "The beginning of what?" In reference to Genesis 1:1.

If you think about it for a while, the question will make a bit of sense.

I will say that I am utterly certain, based off of the wording in Hebrews One and Two, that the creation of men followed after the creation of Angels. As Hebrews One places the angels and men in a hierarchical contradistinction.

Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/7/3 22:24Profile


There are some writings that may offer insight into what happened in those early days, but with that one must use extreme caution and judgement in deciding to accept it as fact or at least some fragments here and there may be acceptable as fact. In the book of Adam and Eve, though considered fictitious, there may be some "hints" of truth, I wouldn't say all of it, but again you have to use your own judgment. This is an introduction taken from the book of Adam and Eve.

This book is considered by many scholars to be part of the "Pseudepigrapha" (soo-duh-pig-ruh-fuh). The "Pseudepigrapha" is a collection of historical biblical works that are considered to be fiction. Because of that stigma, this book was not included in the compilation of the Holy Bible. This book is a written history of what happened in the days of Adam and Eve after they were cast out of the garden. Although considered to be pseudepigraphic by some, it carries significant meaning and insight into events of that time. It is doubtful that these writings could have survived all the many centuries if there were no substance to them. This book is simply a version of an account handed down by word of mouth, from generation to generation, linking the time that the first human life was created to the time when somebody finally decided to write it down. This particular version is the work of unknown Egyptians. The lack of historical allusion makes it difficult to precisely date the writing, however, using other pseudepigraphical works as a reference, it was probably written a few hundred years before the birth of Christ. Parts of this version are found in the Jewish Talmud, and the Islamic Koran, showing what a vital role it played in the original literature of human wisdom.

The gist of my post is to present an alternative picture to what could have or might have happened in those days, only God knows.

1 Then when God, who is merciful and full of pity, heard Adam's voice, He said to him: --

2 "O Adam, so long as the good angel was obedient to Me, a bright light rested on him and on his hosts.

3 But when he transgressed My commandment, I deprived him of that bright nature, and he became dark.

4 And when he was in the heavens, in the realms of light, he knew nothing of darkness.

5 But he transgressed, and I made him fall from the heaven onto the earth; and it was this darkness that came over him.

6 And on you, O Adam, while in My garden and obedient to Me, did that bright light rest also.

7 But when I heard of your transgression, I deprived you of that bright light. Yet, of My mercy, I did not turn you into darkness, but I made you your body of flesh, over which I spread this skin, in order that it may bear cold and heat.

8 If I had let My wrath fall heavily on you, I should have destroyed you; and had I turned you into darkness, it would have been as if I had killed you.

9 But in My mercy, I have made you as you are; when you transgressed My commandment, O Adam, I drove you from the garden, and made you come forth into this land; and commanded you to live in this cave; and darkness covered you, as it did over him who transgressed My commandment.

10 Thus, O Adam, has this night deceived you. It is not to last forever; but is only of twelve hours; when it is over, daylight will return.

11 Sigh not, therefore, neither be moved; and say not in your heart that this darkness is long and drags on wearily; and say not in your heart that I plague you with it.

12 Strengthen your heart, and be not afraid. This darkness is not a punishment. But, O Adam, I have made the day, and have placed the sun in it to give light; in order that you and your children should do your work.

13 For I knew you would sin and transgress, and come out into this land. Yet I wouldn't force you, nor be heard over you, nor shut up; nor doom you through your fall; nor through your coming out from light into darkness; nor yet through your coming from the garden into this land.

14 For I made you of the light; and I willed to bring out children of light from you and like to you.

15 But you did not keep My commandment one day; until I had finished the creation and blessed everything in it.

16 Then, concerning the tree, I commanded you not to eat of it. Yet I knew that Satan, who deceived himself, would also deceive you.

17 So I made known to you by means of the tree, not to come near him. And I told you not to eat of the fruit thereof, nor to taste of it, nor yet to sit under it, nor to yield to it.

18 Had I not been and spoken to you, O Adam, concerning the tree, and had I left you without a commandment, and you had sinned -- it would have been an offence on My part, for not having given you any order; you would turn around and blame Me for it.

19 But I commanded you, and warned you, and you fell. So that My creatures cannot blame Me; but the blame rests on them alone.

20 And, O Adam, I have made the day so that you and your descendants can work and toil in it. And I have made the night for them to rest in it from their work; and for the beasts of the field to go forth by night and look for their food.

21 But little of darkness now remains, O Adam, and daylight will soon appear."

Chapter XIV

The earliest prophesy of the coming of Christ.

1 Then Adam said to God: "O Lord, take You my soul, and let me not see this gloom any more; or remove me to some place where there is no darkness."

2 But God the Lord said to Adam, "Indeed I say to you, this darkness will pass from you, every day I have determined for you, until the fulfillment of My covenant; when I will save you and bring you back again into the garden, into the house of light you long for, in which there is no darkness*. I will bring you to it -- in the kingdom of heaven."

3 Again said God to Adam, "All this misery that you have been made to take on yourself because of your transgression, will not free you from the hand of Satan, and will not save you.

4 But I will. When I shall come down from heaven, and shall become flesh of your descendants, and take on Myself the infirmity from which you suffer, then the darkness that covered you in this cave shall cover Me in the grave, when I am in the flesh of your descendants.

5 And I, who am without years, shall be subject to the reckoning of years, of times, of months, and of days, and I shall be reckoned as one of the sons of men, in order to save you."

6 And God ceased to commune with Adam.


 2010/7/3 23:08

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