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PosterThread
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Brenda
try reading this and emphasise the personal pronouns. I will put them into upper case for you...

"Christ has redeemed US from the curse of the law, having become a curse for US (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that WE might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, WE were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was OUR tutor to bring US to Christ, that WE might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, WE are no longer under a tutor.
26 For YOU are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of YOU as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if YOU are Christ’s, then YOU are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. 1 Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. 3 Even so WE, when WE were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that WE might receive the adoption as sons.
6 And because YOU are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”" Gal 3:13–4:6 NKJV

The last two verses show the switch very clearly
"to redeem those who were under the law, that WE might receive the adoption as sons.
6 And because YOU are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into YOUR hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”" Gal 4:5–6 NKJV

In Gal 4 describes the Old Covenant community as being 'children' and those outside that covenant as being 'slaves'. He says that there is no difference between the 'child' and the 'slave' until the 'time appointed by the father'. This is one of Paul's great themes...

"Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father." Gal 4:1–2 NKJV

"For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," Rom 3:22–23 NKJV

"For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”" Rom 10:12–13 NKJV

The coming of faith and the receiving of the Spirit is the great equalizer.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2010/7/6 13:24Profile









 Re:

Andrew Murray quotes from "The Two Covenants."........

"The New Testement gives evidence, in some of its most important epistles-especially those to the Galtians, Romans and Hebrews-how possible it is within the New Covenant still to be held fast in the bondage of the Old."
(page 20)
How many times do we see this in ministry?

" We shall see how the one great cause of the feeble-ness of so many Christians is that the Old Covenant spirit of bondage still has mastery.'(page 21)

"Not only among the Galatians, but throughout the Church there are to be found two classes of Christians. Some are content with the mingled life, half flesh and half spirit, half self-effort and half grace." (page 22)

"The Old Covenant attains its goal only as it brings men to a sense of their utter sinfulness and their hopeless inability to deliver themselves. As long as they have not grasped this, no offer of the New Covenant life can lay hold of them. As long as an intense longing for deliverance from sinning has not been achieved, they will naturally fall back inti the power of the law and the flesh. The holiness which the New Covenant offers will terrify rather than attract them-largely because the life in the spirit of bondage appears to make allownace for sin, because obedience is declared to be impossible." (page 26)

This last point is among the most tragic of outcomes for the "wretched man," the Christian who has not layed a hold of the freedom that is wrought in Christ and the New Covenant. We have an army of saints today, stuck behind bars, stuck in their cells of unbelief.........brother Frank


 2010/7/6 14:29
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Andrew Murray quotes from "The Two Covenants."........



Frank
I love Andrew Murray and his books and my wife almost always has an Andrew Murray 'on the go' but I have a question about this one. I occasionally hear folk say that someone is still living under the Old Covenant which is essentially what AM is saying. My question is 'are they really living under the Old Covenant?' Is it really there to live under?

If it has been fulfilled in Christ is it not past its sell-buy date and therefore does is have any value at all? I know that will be provocative but I am just asking the question. The Old Covenant had to have a functioning priesthood; this was all part of the package deal that they signed up for at Sinai. As the Levitical priesthood has not functioned for almost 2000 years the Old Covenant has not been a functioning covenant for a long time.



_________________
Ron Bailey

 2010/7/6 16:09Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Great quotes from Andrew Murray, Frank.

It grieves the spirit to see so many Christians these days who are entangled in the yoke of bondage. I am continually coming across Christians who are enamored of the types and shadows of the law... to the point of religiously observing the dietary rules, keeping Saturday sabbath, observing the feasts in their Old Covenant setting (being quick, of course, to say the sacrifices are not to be kept any longer) etc. etc. It's a big thing with them to talk about Shabbat, and call Jesus Yeshua, etc.

There was once a veil that came over those who were under the Old Covenant preventing them from seeing it was being done away in Christ. It seems the same blindness is settling upon many Christians. They simply aren't seeing the awesome wonderful difference between the Old Covenant and the New.


_________________
Allan Halton

 2010/7/6 16:21Profile









 Re:

Hi Ron, I think that you are right and wrong :) For sure the functioning Jewish priesthood has passed. Yet it is the type and anti-type that I am most interested in. What can I learn from those who had to stand outside the vail? If, under the OC the priests had no access to the holy of holies, then what access do the royal priests have under the NC? The functioning purpose of the OC still applies to those who put themselves under the Law. I think Paul speaks about it best in 2 Cor chapter 3. He clearly describes it as a ministry of death as opposed to the ministry of the Spirit. One is death in the Law and the other is life in the Spirit. So, to me, the tragedy is, there are two broad groups within genuine Christianity as Murray rightly identifies. The vail has been taken away for all of them, yet only some of them enter into the Holy of Holy's.

If one is in prison for life, and Jesus comes and pardons you and opens the cell, its still incumbant upon that one to walk out of the cell. And so one can appear to be a prisoner and live the life of a prisoner and yet the door has been opened. Its somehow safer to dwell within the bounds of the cell than to open it up and go beyond what they ever knew. The bars are made up of the Law, and they have not aprehended their freedom in Christ........brother Frank

 2010/7/6 16:25
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Ron said, "My question is 'are they really living under the Old Covenant?' Is it really there to live under?"

Excellent point, Ron, and you brought this out earlier on this same thread. No, it is not there any longer to live under.

It is fulfilled in Christ.

"For the law, having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things..." (Heb. 10.1).

But the good things to come have come now! The Very Image is come now!

The True Light-- which makes what is true in Him to be true in us-- is now shining!

I know there is, and will be, a warfare over this!


_________________
Allan Halton

 2010/7/6 16:30Profile









 Re: ADisciple

You are mixing up the Ten Commandments with the Old covenant.

When that old covenant was established by blood, the ten commandments were not sprinkled with blood. The old covenant was laid BESIDE the ark of the covenant, and not within it. The Old covenant was mediated to Moses, and written by his hand.

The Old Covenant ORDINANCES(,not comandments,) were an addition to God's commandments.

The ten commandments were written and declared by God. They are valid until death is no more.

[The 4th commandment is to remember the Sabbath, and look at just a few of the benefits of obeying God in this: Is. 13, 14.]

Here's a challenge repeated:
Where does it say that the Law is done away with?

We see from scripture that it has only been changed in the Levitical and sacraficial aspects.

Rom 7:12

These things in this verse are also descriptive of God.

The Law (of Moses) was against us until Jesus completed all of God's covenants in one fell swoop. What man could never keep was made not only possible, but probable in Jesus Christ's finished work.

What do you make of Psalm 119, since you think that (maybe all) former covenants are abolished? Is it a lie? Are the truths in it invalid?

Paul clarifies that the Law manifests sin, and we know that disobedience to God put us into bondage to sin. Having put these two thoughts together, can't you see that bondage to the law is relative to knowing to do good and not doing it?

Since the Law is Holy, it is also good.

Jesus kept the whole Old Testament? If you think that grace is given to step on what is Holy and good, you are dead wrong.

When Jesus said he came to filfil the Law and the prophets, it does not at all mean He did everything so we can just think, say, and do whatever we please. It means that he brought the spirit of the Law to rest sqaure on the shoulders of those who believe and obey. The letter of the law is the outward evidence of Jesus living within.
Jn. 3:36 ESV

Ron said that there were 613 Laws, and he is correct to a certain point. 603 are not laws for us, but are ordinances of the Old covenant written by man through angels giving the message from God. To we who believe and obey Jesus, these are not Laws, but pathway towards our best interest. When such things as sickness, disease, poverty, being taken advantage of, etc. no longer exist, they will no longer be needed.

The Ten Commandments are not based on the old covenant. The old covenant is based on them. They stand of their own merit as God's declaration to all of humanity. When sin and resulting death are no more, they will no longer be needed.

Yur kotz 2,
g
Acts 20:32

 2010/7/6 19:31
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2003
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Phanetheus:

There are actually several places where Paul states explicitly that the law was done away with. 2 Cor. 3:7-11 states that the ten commandments, the only part of the law written and graven in stone, was glorious, but has been done away with. Ephesians 2:14-15 tell us that the law of commandments in ordinances was in itself the enmity between us and God and that it was abolished by the blood of Christ. Paul calls the law a yoke of bondage that we should never again be entangled with in Gal. 5. Hebrews 10:9 is also very clear.

I distinctly remember having a similar discussion with my Grandfather several years before he passed away. It was a time when I was really beginning to understand what Paul was saying when he talked about the law. He just could not see it for some reason. I remember asking him if he believed a Christian should keep the law. He said, "yes". But then he began to pick parts of the law that should be kept and parts that were not necessary to keep. It fell primarily along the lines of the ten commandments vs. the rest of the law. The problem with this thinking is that the ten commandments are part of and inseparable from the remainder of the law and the law is one and the same with the old covenant.

This is not to say that the law does not serve a valid purpose today. It's purpose is the same as it has always been, to show sin to be exceeding sinful and to convince all under sin. Romans 7 is perhaps the most clear statement of this purpose of the law. The ten commandments never did anything about sin, they just showed us that we were in sin. If I were in sin and did not think I was doing anything wrong, if I were a man who said, "I am a good person. I will be OK when I die.", the law will quickly show me that I am not so good after all. This is exactly how Jesus used the law with the rich young ruler. He reminded him of the commandments and then showed him that he was not even keeping the first one.

But the law is not made for the Christian. We operate under a very different paradigm. We have a spirit that has been born again, regenerated, made alive unto God and as such He has written His law there. Not the inferior shadow of His Holiness that the law portrayed, but the He Himself dwelling in us in Holiness. If we realize this and walk in the Spirit we exceed the mere keeping of the letter of the law. We live from the heart of God. If we learn to die to self and walk in the Spirit we will live more holy on accident than a person who is in bondage to law could ever have lived on purpose.

The law is holy. The law is good. True statements from Romans 7:12. But then in Romans 7:13 and following Paul tells us the purpose of the law. If God says, "Thou shalt not kill.", and it shows us that our murder is sin, we would not say the law was bad, but we would also not say that the law made us anything better than a murderer. It was a holy standard that concluded us under sin, that showed us our sin and depravity. But the law was never intended by God to be the standard or covenant under which we live our lives. He has so much better a covenant in mind from before the foundations of the world. A covenant in which we might walk in the spirit in relationship with Him and be free from our sin.


_________________
Travis

 2010/7/6 20:01Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Phanetheus said, "You are mixing up the Ten Commandments with the Old covenant. When that old covenant was established by blood, the ten commandments were not sprinkled with blood."

No, the ten commandments are the very backbone of the Old Covenant. And yes, they were sprinkled with blood.

"For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, this is the blood of the testament (covenant) which God hath enjoined unto you" (Heb. 10.19,20).

Phanetheus said, "The old covenant was laid BESIDE the ark of the covenant, and not within it. The Old covenant was mediated to Moses, and written by his hand."

No, they were IN the ark of the covenant.

"There was nothing IN the ark save the two tables of stone which Moses put there in Horeb when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt" (1 Kings 8.9).

Edited to add this: And of course that ark itself was also sprinkled with blood.


_________________
Allan Halton

 2010/7/6 20:17Profile









 Re:

by ADisciple on 2010/7/6 12:30:35

Ron said, "My question is 'are they really living under the Old Covenant?' Is it really there to live under?"

Excellent point, Ron, and you brought this out earlier on this same thread. No, it is not there any longer to live under.
------------------------------------------------------------
To be under Law, in the Bible means that you are reaping the consequences for disobeying it: sin leading eventually to death.

It's one thing to obey because God says it's holy, righteous and good, and another altogether to do it out of fear (towards consequences, of man, of unrighteousness, etc...).
____________________________________________________________

It is fulfilled in Christ.
------------------------------------------------------------
You have to be using Mt 5:17, because that's the only place i find it(searching concordance quickly. Either you did not read what i wrote or you do not want to understand:

Here's Strongs:
πληρόω [pleroo /play·ro·o/] v. From 4134; TDNT 6:286; TDNTA 867; GK 4444; 90 occurrences; AV translates as “fulfil” 51 times, “fill” 19 times, “be full” seven times, “complete” twice, “end” twice, and translated miscellaneously nine times. 1 to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full. 1a to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally. 1a1 I abound, I am liberally supplied. 2 to render full, i.e. to complete. 2a to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim. 2b to consummate: a number. 2b1 to make complete in every particular, to render perfect. 2b2 to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking). 2c to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise. 2c1 of matters of duty: to perform, execute. 2c2 of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish. 2c3 to fulfil, i.e. to cause God’s will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God’s promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment.



As well, Rom. 10:4 is relative to this.

Look at the word 'end'in Strong's:
τέλος [telos /tel·os/] n n. From a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal); TDNT 8:49; TDNTA 1161; GK 5465; 42 occurrences; AV translates as “end” 35 times, “custom” three times, “uttermost” once, “finally” once, “ending” once, and “by (one’s) continual + 1519” once. 1 end. 1a termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time). 1b the end. 1b1 the last in any succession or series. 1b2 eternal. 1c that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue. 1d the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose. 2 toll, custom (i.e. indirect tax on goods).


It should be pretty clear the Law is not a closed issue, nor finished, as many other verses do contradict this such as Rom. 8:4.

Why would it, as this verse bears out, still need to be fulfilled in us if Jesus abolished it?

Since it is walking in the Spirit that fulfills the Law, please explain exactly how this occurs. If not for me, for others reading.
(Oh, i know and do walk accordingly. It's just that you questioned whether i was walking in shadow, so it's questioned if you walk in light, considering what you say about the Law of God.)
____________________________________________________________


"For the law, having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things..." (Heb. 10.1).

But the good things to come have come now! The Very Image is come now!
------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus said He came to 'bring things to fullness'.

The image came and went and is coming again to set everything as His kingdom comes.

The good things are not here yet. The fulness of our redemption is still to come. You and i will still die (if not anything else,) from the curse of the Law.

AD, you need to quit living in an air fairy neverland and look at the here and now. Are there wars? Is there sickness, disease, people starving, death...etc?

Did Jesus come to leave the earth in the state it's in? You should know better than to speak as though you are ignorant of all the prophets not yet being filfilled. Accordingly, the Law is still effective.

Get a grip, because scripture does not contradict reality. It is above it! He has revealed what will happen when, and to say otherwise is to lie against the truth (in unrighteousness).
____________________________________________________________


The True Light-- which makes what is true in Him to be true in us-- is now shining!
------------------------------------------------------------
The above statement is as close to truth as you have come in your post.

The Light through the glorious Good News of Jesus CHrist is now shining, in and through we who are in Him. The issue is, even in us, we have not yet seen the translation into His glory.

Get a grip.
get a grip.
get a grip.

Let go and let God be I AM,
and not what we want
to make Him out to be.

Yur' kotz 2,
gregg
Acts 20:32

p.s. i have , and still am just as guilty as you in this in other ways relative. Thing is, when we see Him as he is, we shall know even as we are known. In that day we will all find out just how wrong we all were.

 2010/7/6 20:33





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