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 Re: HOW THE TWO COVENANTS AFFECTED ME

I came to the Lord in my early 20`s after a sudden understanding that He died for me personally. Before that I did not know sin, I thought that I was as good as anyone and a godless upbringing did not educate me otherwise. In a way it was a blessing as I was totally steeped in the world`s philosophies and once God began to teach me by His Spirit it was astoundedly in opposition to everything I had known previously so I had an advantage in knowing the things of God and things of man very clearly.

With the revelation of the truth came the law, and I now had a standard to live by and no longer was free to do as I desired. Gratitude for what Christ had done for me was the driving force behind my desire to be obedient but I went the way that many do. I thought that my obedience to the commands of God written in the NT were what was required to make me able to approach the throne of grace with confidence but gradually I began to feel the weight of guilt that I feel down so many times and failed to do what I knew I ought to do and did not do the things I knew I should do.

The law weighed heavily on me as I tried to maintain a good witness and this was a grievous bondage to me as I knew that what went on in my heart was not in accordance with my professions of faith. I was desperate that others would not see me as a fake as I did not want to let the Lord`s reputation down by my own failures and so it went on.

I admired the Lord and was grateful but I could not say I loved Him with my whole heart. My attendance at church and the Bible study were out of duty and fear of falling away if I did not attend. It had all become a routine and an act but the emptiness inside was kept hidden through shame. Is this all there is I asked myself? Life was much harder than before I was saved. Where was the blessedness - the peace the joy? I had none just this burden on my back that is to say, the result of being under the Old Covenant in order to teach me of my weakness and failures.

As a schoolmaster it brought me to Christ one day in deep desperation whereby I did not want to live any longer as I was. I was ready to die and just as Christ died to bring in the New Covenant, His child has to die too. So I consented to death, that from henceforth I would belong entirely to Christ and He could do whatever He wanted with me - I was done.

In an instant the prison filled with light and His presence was upon me as He took my hand and led me forth out of my bondage onto the ground of the New Covenant where He showered His love upon me until I had to ask Him to stop, and the gate of heaven was opened up to me. The precious promises became real.

I did not know but His will was that He was to be all and I had to learn that serving Him no matter how good the intentions was not what He required. We are to be as He was and He did nothing without the father, living in absolute dependence on Him. The early part of my walk was to teach me this, that whatever I do by my self will fail but when He is our all in all it is His doing and there is no failure, no letting Him down, no gap in the reality of what we present to the world and our inner lives and especially what is deep in our heart.

The new heart from the new covenant is one that obeys Him entirely because it is He who rules there and nothing else can claim our loyalty.

Unless we have experience of the two covenants and have put the flesh to death and are walking in holiness as He is holy, then we are talking hot air.

Brenda

 2010/7/6 7:09
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

There are a lot of posts on this thread and I will try to go through them all. But in the meantime, perhaps "New" has less to do with "never before seen" , but rather is new in the sense of substitution. The Abrahamic Covenant and the New Covenant are the same and Paul makes that clear in many passages in Romans and elsewhere. The New Covenant is a fuller expression and actually is fulfilled in Christ. The Newness of it perhpas is that Christ is the fullfilment of it and through and in Him we are born again into participation in that covenant.

 2010/7/6 9:08Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Unless we have experience of the two covenants and have put the flesh to death and are walking in holiness as He is holy, then we are talking hot air.



Brenda
I appreciate your testimony and I don't intend to 'adjust' it! If this is the way God has led you... Amen to it. I do think we have to be careful about setting it down as the only way for everyone.

Read your Galatians again and notice how Paul switches from 'us, our, we' referring to the Old Covenant community and the 'you' as he refers to Gentile believers. The law was 'our paedogogus' 'our personal policeman/child-conductor', but when 'faith' came even 'we' are no longer under the law. The Gentiles were never 'under the law' of Sinai; they were under universal law but not the 10 commandments. The 10 commandments are people and land related. If we read Exodus we see very plainly who they were addressed to.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2010/7/6 9:15Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
The Abrahamic Covenant and the New Covenant are the same



If we compare the terms of the Abrahamic Covenant on Gen 17 and the terms of the New Covenant in Jer 31 are quite different. I don't know what verses you are referring to when you say that Paul equates the Abrahamic Covenant with the New Covenant

Quote:
perhaps "New" has less to do with "never before seen" , but rather is new in the sense of substitution.


I am sure that the two covenants cannot coexist and in that sense 'substitution' might fit but 'fulfilment' would be a better fit I think. Have you thought about the implications of Gen 15 and 17. In Gen 15 Abram, as the sleeping partner, witnesses a covenant making ceremony, but what covenant is this? In Gen 17 God makes a covenant with Abraham in which the covenant seal is circumcision. Gen 16 is the tragedy of Ishmael and there is a gap of 13 years between the covenant of Gen 15 and the covenant of Gen 17. Any thoughts?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2010/7/6 9:23Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Ron B. - I didn't state my case very clearly. I think that Christ is the fulfillment of all the Covenants God has made with His people starting in Genesis and forward. The New Covenant is not a replacement for the Abrahamic Covenant in the sense that faith in the coming Seed has always been God's way of eternal blessing. What is different between the Sinatic Covenant and the New is what you have described. It is Christ in you, the Hope of Glory. The union of God and the soul of man is the work God does to create a covenant/marriage relationship with each person and His people. As Scripture says, the Holy Spirit will dwell with you and in you. It is through faith that we have union with Christ.

If you look at Paul's insturction to the Galation church in Galations 2 and 3, you can see that Paul stresses very hard that we begin in Christ and live in Christ because we have received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and returning to the Law of the Old Covenant as the source of our relationship with God is antithetical to that. So ultimately, I agree with you, the difference is the difference between circumcision of the flesh and circumcision of the heart caused by the indwelling of God.

Union with Christ is our participation with Christ in the fulfillment of all prior covenants because He fulfilled them all. In Christ and Christ in You should be not only a theological belief but a personal experience.

 2010/7/6 9:42Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Another thought.....

As Scripture says, the Old Covenant of the Law was added because of transgression. Perhaps, it was "added" to the Abrahamic Covenant. Under God's Abrahamic covenant with His people, he would be the God of those who are descendants of Abraham, children of the promise and not of the flesh. Jesus and the apostle Paul make it clear this refers to spiritual descendants and not physical descendants.

Since the path to God has always been through faith in the Seed of the Woman and the Seed of Abraham, then faith in God's Seed and provision of a Savior has always been the door through which we enter into God's kingdom and spiritual family. The question of the Old and New Covenant, then, is not one of a different path for becoming a part of His spiritual family but, rather, the New Covenant is a different way of living once we've entered into that family. Those "under the law" were living according to external standards which was the Law, a tutor and a gaurdian for God's covenant spirtual family. This tutor always pointed to the need for Christ because living according to the perfect standard of the Law was impossible. The need for Christ was a need for the Spirit of Christ to indwell and guide the child of God into all righteousness. The external Law is no longer necessary as a tutor for the child of God. Now, under the new covenant, Christ indwells the believer/child of God and being taught by the Spirit of Christ and walking with and according to the Spirit of Christ is what our union with God looks like under the New Covenant. Under the Old Covenant His people were His people by faith, but they walked according to the Law written on tablets of stone.

 2010/7/6 10:05Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Quote:
Since the path to God has always been through faith in the Seed of the Woman and the Seed of Abraham, then faith in God's Seed and provision of a Savior has always been the door through which we enter into God's kingdom and spiritual family. The question of the Old and New Covenant, then, is not one of a different path for becoming a part of His spiritual family but, rather, the New Covenant is a different way of living once we've entered into that family. Those "under the law" were living according to external standards which was the Law, a tutor and a gaurdian for God's covenant spirtual family




Amen....................................

From the foundation of this world, all generations could access salvation through Christ by faith. We know that the law of God was in place after the fall of Adam. We know that the 10 commandments were in place in the generation of Job. We know that those who are perishing today are still under the law.

All things procede from the Father through Christ. He is the mediator for all men. He is the light of all men.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/6 10:57Profile









 Re:

by ADisciple on 2010/7/5 17:03:41

Just trying to see a little more clearly where you are at, Gregg...

You still didn't answer my question: "And when is it that you expect the Old Covenant will have finally once and for all been entirely done away?" For if it "was being done away," there must come a time when it is finally totally done away. When, in your judgment, does that take place?
------------------------------------------------------------
It's been answered several times.

What was being done away is not yet done away.

When in 'my?' judgement will this happen?
Mt 5:18

This seems to me to refer to the re-creation of Heaven and earth as the end of all the old things. Towards righteousness, the Law is a complete full circle. If these other things, such as deitary laws were obsolete and done away with, we would not even have the potential to get sick,as one example.
____________________________________________________________

And you said, "The metathesis to the Mosaic Law is God's commandments, existing before and after the old covenant. Everything within the Mosaic Law was based on the 10 commandments. The ten commandments are the substance, and the Mosaic Law is the shadow. Though the means of propitiation and the priesthood has changed from shadow to substance, the shadow of the commandments still exists."

The change is from shadow to substance, but the shadow of the commandments still exist? That's confusing.
------------------------------------------------------------

Since we have the substance, Jesus Christ and His finished work as the reality here and now, there cannot help but be the shadow in it's fullness.

The Laws of Moses are a visible representation of God's ideal for us. As we relate with God in growth, it has been observed, that these things almost automatically become visible in our lives. It serves as a standard of conduct, a marker, given by our loving Father to help us in living life as He would have it, in every aspect.

It is not a matter of keeping rules. It's a matter of growing relationship.
____________________________________________________________

And you say the Mosaic ordinances ought to be kept for health's sake. You mean we shouldn't eat pork. then?

I wonder, do you still observe the feasts in their shadow form?
------------------------------------------------------------

That's your choice if you want to eat pork, but it is not God's ideal. IF you take some time and study the damages pork does to your health, with that evidence alone, most people quit using it.

Personally, i thankfully eat what is placed before me when it is sanctified by the Word of God and prayer.

"All things are permissable, yet not all things are beneficial."

At home, i do not enforce others here to do it, as they are capable of deciding what should and should not be on their own. My eldest daughter is a pescatarian (sp?), like Jesus: i'm not.

Holy Days are not currently observed in their shadow form. The Pascal Love Feast and Pentecost are observed though, in appreciation and recognition of their fulfillment.
____________________________________________________________

...Are you still living in the shadows, Gregg? Or have you come out into the True Light?


AD,

No one person is in the same place in their walk with our Father through Jesus Christ. We all come to relationship in God through different perspectives and different cultures.

Jesus makes the shadow of the Old Covenant light, and it is not by the outward obedience to traditions or rules that these things are done. It is an outworking from the heart, without a thought of is this right or wrong.

I'm sure on judgement day, God will not condemn you to hell for walking closer to the ideals He reveals because your heart's being transformed towards His standard by Him.

Now being rebellious and disobedient when you know better is another thing altogether.

Rom, 7:8-9, 14:23
I Jn. 3:4
Jas. 4:17

Gal. 2:20
Mt. 5:19

God Bless you
as you abide
in Jesus Christ
hear His voice,
then do as he says,
irregardless of human opinion,

Yur kotz 2,
gregg
Acts 20:32

 2010/7/6 11:04









 Re:


Ron wrote

"Read your Galatians again and notice how Paul switches from 'us, our, we' referring to the Old Covenant community and the 'you' as he refers to Gentile believers. The law was 'our paedogogus' 'our personal policeman/child-conductor', but when 'faith' came even 'we' are no longer under the law. The Gentiles were never 'under the law' of Sinai; they were under universal law but not the 10 commandments. The 10 commandments are people and land related. If we read Exodus we see very plainly who they were addressed to."

Ron when I read Galatians I see Paul speaking to those believers who were like me and who thought that they were to be sanctified through obeying the law - gradual sanctification but Paul was telling them that it is by faith. Paul when he says we, is referring to himself and others who made the same mistake and got stuck in Romans 7 from where he progressed to Romans 8 when he saw this too. We are sanctified through faith in the blood of Christ and not through working at it and remain under the old covenant unless we are enlightened and unfortunately most of us are not enlightened especially when the church is not preaching the full gospel.

If this was the pattern for the Galatians and Paul then I think we can safely assume it is for all of us.

Brenda

 2010/7/6 12:47
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Ron wrote:

Quote:
The Gentiles were never 'under the law' of Sinai; they were under universal law but not the 10 commandments. The 10 commandments are people and land related. If we read Exodus we see very plainly who they were addressed to."



Was Job a gentile?

Listen to this section of Scripture, most of the 10 commandments will be found in just one chapter in the book of Job..............................................



Job 31:1 ¶ I made a covenant with mine eyes; why then should I think upon a maid?
Job 31:2 For what portion of God [is there] from above? and [what] inheritance of the Almighty from on high?
Job 31:3 [Is] not destruction to the wicked? and a strange [punishment] to the workers of iniquity?
Job 31:4 Doth not he see my ways, and count all my steps?
Job 31:5 If I have walked with vanity, or if my foot hath hasted to deceit;
Job 31:6 Let me be weighed in an even balance, that God may know mine integrity.
Job 31:7 If my step hath turned out of the way, and mine heart walked after mine eyes, and if any blot hath cleaved to mine hands;
Job 31:8 [Then] let me sow, and let another eat; yea, let my offspring be rooted out.
Job 31:9 If mine heart have been deceived by a woman, or [if] I have laid wait at my neighbour's door;
Job 31:10 [Then] let my wife grind unto another, and let others bow down upon her.
Job 31:11 For this [is] an heinous crime; yea, it [is] an iniquity [to be punished by] the judges.
Job 31:12 For it [is] a fire [that] consumeth to destruction, and would root out all mine increase.
Job 31:13 If I did despise the cause of my manservant or of my maidservant, when they contended with me;
Job 31:14 What then shall I do when God riseth up? and when he visiteth, what shall I answer him?
Job 31:15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?
Job 31:16 If I have withheld the poor from [their] desire, or have caused the eyes of the widow to fail;
Job 31:17 Or have eaten my morsel myself alone, and the fatherless hath not eaten thereof;
Job 31:18 (For from my youth he was brought up with me, as [with] a father, and I have guided her from my mother's womb;)
Job 31:19 If I have seen any perish for want of clothing, or any poor without covering;
Job 31:20 If his loins have not blessed me, and [if] he were [not] warmed with the fleece of my sheep;
Job 31:21 If I have lifted up my hand against the fatherless, when I saw my help in the gate:
Job 31:22 [Then] let mine arm fall from my shoulder blade, and mine arm be broken from the bone.
Job 31:23 For destruction [from] God [was] a terror to me, and by reason of his highness I could not endure.
Job 31:24 If I have made gold my hope, or have said to the fine gold, [Thou art] my confidence;
Job 31:25 If I rejoiced because my wealth [was] great, and because mine hand had gotten much;
Job 31:26 If I beheld the sun when it shined, or the moon walking [in] brightness;
Job 31:27 And my heart hath been secretly enticed, or my mouth hath kissed my hand:
Job 31:28 This also [were] an iniquity [to be punished by] the judge: for I should have denied the God [that is] above.
Job 31:29 If I rejoiced at the destruction of him that hated me, or lifted up myself when evil found him:
Job 31:30 Neither have I suffered my mouth to sin by wishing a curse to his soul.
Job 31:31 If the men of my tabernacle said not, Oh that we had of his flesh! we cannot be satisfied.
Job 31:32 The stranger did not lodge in the street: [but] I opened my doors to the traveller.
Job 31:33 If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom:
Job 31:34 Did I fear a great multitude, or did the contempt of families terrify me, that I kept silence, [and] went not out of the door?
Job 31:35 Oh that one would hear me! behold, my desire [is, that] the Almighty would answer me, and [that] mine adversary had written a book.
Job 31:36 Surely I would take it upon my shoulder, [and] bind it [as] a crown to me.
Job 31:37 I would declare unto him the number of my steps; as a prince would I go near unto him.
Job 31:38 If my land cry against me, or that the furrows likewise thereof complain;
Job 31:39 If I have eaten the fruits thereof without money, or have caused the owners thereof to lose their life:
Job 31:40 Let thistles grow instead of wheat, and cockle instead of barley. The words of Job are ended.


.......................................................

According to Paul, these people, jew or gentile are still under the law.
.........................................................

1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law [is] good if one uses it lawfully,
1Ti 1:9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for [the] lawless and insubordinate, for [the] ungodly and for sinners, for [the] unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,


Do you see that the law is still in effect?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/6 13:21Profile





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