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davidc
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Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

Alive to God you write
"Is not that God knew the Old Covenant was NOT the whole answer to sin, one of the reasons He knew some people would abandon it?"

Yes, I agree, the old covenant was temporary until the seed came, which is Christ.

At Sinai, God gave His people the law, written on tablets of stone. Later, when they had made the ark of the covenant and all the other things relating to the tabernacle, Moses instucted the Levites

" Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the Lord; and how much more after my death" Deut 31:25-27 (KJV)

Thus the law and the covenant were linked inseperably, the one inside the other. Of course, for us, this speaks of new things in Christ, Hallellujah. But, for Israel, the law was given at the same time that the covenant with them was made conditional on them keeping the whole law. (hope you follow that sentence).

God brought in this new thing, the law, (before that, they were under grace). He brought it in deliberately to show Israel their real state of heart, that they could not keep it, and He made all the promises and blessings of that same covenant conditional on them keeping the law, which they could not do. The law had no power in itself to prevent men from sinning, or to take away sin. As Paul writes it was given to show the utter sinfulness of sin.

David
I look forward to you meditations in Zechariah


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david

 2010/11/1 20:18Profile









 Re: A New Covenant


Hi David,

I'm interested in how you have managed to keep the Old Covenant separate from the law in the way you explain things.

Quote:
I look forward to you meditations in Zechariah

It's a work in progress. Keep talking among yourselves (lol). I'll get back when I've something to share. :-)

 2010/11/1 20:23
davidc
Member



Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

Alive to God, you write
I'm interested in how you have managed to keep the Old Covenant separate from the law in the way you explain things.

As I wrote in my last post, the ten commandments were put inside the ark of the covenant. But the law is not the same as the covenant. Paul wrote that Christ, on the cross: "abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances" Eph 2:15 (KJV) The law was given for Israel to obey. It was the sign to the nations, together with their worship that they were the people of God. The law was given to Israel, the nation at Horeb, but before that, god's law was revealed to all men individually who had faith to see it through their consciences. Paul says that the Gentiles "shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness" Romans 2:15 (KJV) Job is an example of this.The law given to Israel however was a law for the nation to live by, including every aspect of life.

Nasher suggested:
"Perhaps we could list what each covenant promised and to whom and the similarities / differences between them"

I and others have already quoted the covenant promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I would like to trace the covenant given to the children of Israel below and see how they compare with the Abrahamic covenant. It is a long posting for which I apologise. Please bare with me.

The covenant with the children of Israel is God's promise to them as a nation. A promise of fruitfulness, multiplication, health, happiness and blessing. It is in essence the same covenant which the Lord made with Abraham. (only now conditional on obedience).. It was His covenant with Abraham which caused Him to have respect to the children of Israel when they suffered in Egypt (see Ex 2:23-25).

After Moses and Aaaron had spoken first to Pharoh to let the people go, God met with Moses again, and revealed to him the name "Jehovah", by which He would be known by the children of Israel.

"And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the Lord: And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them. And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers. And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant.6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the Lord, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments: And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the Lord your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the Lord" Ex 6:2-8 (KJV)

So here God was promising to give to the children of Israel the inheritance ie the land promised to Abraham.

In chapter 19 the covenant promise is expanded to them as He had respect to them as a nation, not just an individual like Abraham:

"Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. Ex 19:3-6 (KJV)

In chap 31, again the covenant was expanded for their refreshment as a nation:

"Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. Ex 31:16-17 (KJV)

God was shown to them to be a marvel working God in chap 34"

And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the Lord: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee. Ex 34:10 (KJV)

The book of Leviticus deals mainly with the priestly role of Israel, and the covenant and law is expanded to include rules for every aspect of life as the chosen nation of God.. Lev 26 includes a reminder from God that whatever they do as a nation, if they humble themseves, then God will remember His covenant with Jacob, Isaac and Abraham (deliberately reverse order by the spirit)

"if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity: Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land. The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes. And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the Lord their God. But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the Lord Lev 26:41-45 (KJV)

He says the same thing in Deuteronomy chap 4

"When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the Lord thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; (For the Lord thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them. Deut 4:30-31 (KJV)

Then in Deut chap 5, He shows them the difference between the covenant with them and the covenant with their fathers, ie that theirs included the law, the ten commandments; it was conditional:

"The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day. The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire, (I stood between the Lord and you at that time, to shew you the word of the Lord: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount;) saying,
The ten commandments
I am the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, etc Deut 5:2-6 (KJV)

And in chap 7, they are told that if they keep the laws, God will keep the covenant with them - the same covenant as with Abraham:

"Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the Lord thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers: And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee. Thou shalt be blessed above all people: there shall not be male or female barren among you, or among your cattle Deut 7:12-14 (KJV)

When Moses was 120 years old, He said to the children of Israel, just before they went into the land:

"Ye stand this day all of you before the Lord your God; your captains of your tribes, your elders, and your officers, with all the men of Israel, Your little ones, your wives, and thy stranger that is in thy camp, from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water: That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the Lord thy God, and into his oath, which the Lord thy God maketh with thee this day: That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and that he may be unto thee a God, as he hath said unto thee, and as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob. Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath; But with him that standeth here with us this day before the Lord our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day:" Deut 29:10-15 (KJV)

Conclusion: the covenant which God made with the children of Israel was the same as the one made with Abraham, and involved their living in the land. It was expanded for Israel to include their status as the nation of God, and at Horeb, it was made conditional on obeying the law.

David


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david

 2010/11/2 20:24Profile









 Re: A New Covenant

Hi David,

Thank you for all the scripture you quoted. I see you are particularly attached to 'the land' aspect of what you see in the Old Covenant, unless I've misread your emphasis.

Is this really the central theme, though, of what God revealed of His heart to them, way back then?

 2010/11/5 13:43
davidc
Member



Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

Alive to God, you ask concerning the theme of "the land"
"Is this really the central theme, though, of what God revealed of His heart to them, way back then?"

We should be careful to distinguish betwen what God has revealed to us through his son and given us in his son, and what he revealed to the fathers, especially Abraham. We have the revelation of Christ, the Head of His body the church exalted in the heavens, and the Holy Ghost sent down to change us into His likeness from glory to glory. We have known the love of the Father and have fellowship with Him and with each other by the Holy Ghost.

I am quoting next a passage on the covenants by J N Darby, as he expresses these things better than I can. I'm not being lazy as I have this evening again gone through all the passages where God speaks to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and made detailed notes of what promises were made.


"The Abrahamic covenants (though wider in the scope and testimony, as we have seen, than the local blessings and promises to Israel, as the apostle also so fully argues) contained none of these things (ie the things revealed to us).They proposed the person of the Redeemer, the promised Seed; they proposed the blessing of all nations, but they went not beyond Abraham’s being the heir of the world. This may disclose brighter things now that the veil is rent; but in the promises and covenants given to Abraham, he did not outstep as yet in expression the limits of what belonged to the first Adam, because the second Adam (who was also the Lord from heaven) was not revealed, and was simply testified of as the seed of Abraham in whom this blessing should come, whatever it was.

These promises and covenants are in Genesis 12 and 15, and confirmed in chapters 17 and 22. The first promise runs thus: “And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing; and I will bless him that blesseth thee, and curse him that curseth thee; and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.” Afterward the Lord appeared unto Abram and said, “To thy seed will I give this land”: here we have nothing beyond the earth and the families by whom it has been divided.

In chapter 15 we have the promise of a seed, numerous as the stars of heaven, and (after stating the circumstances in which they would be intermediately placed) the giving of the land to them, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, confirmed by the covenant of the Lord passing between the pieces of the victims.

In chapter 17 this is established as an everlasting covenant with Abraham (his name being changed), and with his seed after him, throughout their generations—that God would be a God to him, and to his seed after him; and that He would give to him, and to his seed after him, all the land wherein he was a stranger, for an everlasting possession; and that He would be their God. And circumcision was given to Abraham as a seal.

In chapter 22 we have the confirmation of the promise to the seed. “In blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of heaven and as the sand which is by the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.” In the latter part of this promise we have the confirmation of the blessing of the families of the earth to the seed, that is Christ; which was (in chap. 12) made originally to Abram. Still (whatever be the manner of its accomplishment), it reaches not beyond the original promise to the families of the earth; nor is He, in whom it was to be fulfilled, revealed otherwise than as the seed of Abraham. The other promises, and the formal covenant, are all of the land, and of a seed numerous and prosperous, who should inherit it, and be a blessing. In all this (however unconditionally it establishes that) we have nothing beyond that which is earthly. The promises and covenants in Abraham are established upon grounds which cannot be shaken—not the stability of a professed obedience, but the stability of the declared promise of God—two immutable things in which it was impossible for God to lie, His promise, and His oath. Whatever intimations of circumstances or gathering of hope there might be, the covenants themselves expressed no more. They were confirmed to Isaac, chapter 26, and to Jacob, chapter 28; but no particular remark is called for as to the terms of the covenants in them"


Can I finish by quoting again from psalm 105

"Seek the Lord, and his strength: seek his face evermore. Remember his marvellous works that he hath done; his wonders, and the judgments of his mouth; O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen. He is the Lord our God: his judgments are in all the earth. He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations. Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac; And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant: Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance: When they were but a few men in number; yea, very few, and strangers in it. Psalms 105:4-12 (KJV)

So, yes, I do believe that the land and earthly things were at the heart of the covenant with Abraham and with Israel as a nation.

David


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david

 2010/11/5 20:50Profile
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 Re:

Quote:

"Conclusion: the covenant which God made with the children of Israel was the same as the one made with Abraham, and involved their living in the land. It was expanded for Israel to include their status as the nation of God, and at Horeb, it was made conditional on obeying the law."

And yet for all this there is no life in the Nation or in the Law.

For: 1 John 5:11-13 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Life in the Son, not in the Law, lest why was their given a better way if the old could save to the Utmost, only in Christ can this be accomplished, this mystery which was hidden, even from Isreal, until it was revealed through Paul and his final Gospel of Christ in you the Hope of Glory.


Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

The whole fulfillment of the Word of God, "IN CHRIST".

It is not Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, or Moses or anyone else, It is Christ who lives in me, He is my only life.

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

This is our life.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2010/11/5 21:01Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
So, yes, I do believe that the land and earthly things were at the heart of the covenant with Abraham and with Israel as a nation.



David, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that God still intends to honour the covenant He made to Abraham by giving the nation of Israel the earthly land of Canaan.

But the writer of Hebrews say that Abraham himself, even way back then, looked for something greater than the earthly land. We are told he "looked for a city that hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God" (Heb. 11.10).

We are also told that many of those of old, while looking for the fulfillment of the promise, "confessed they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth" (Heb. 11.13).

This would certainly include David the king, who had already entered into that earthly land and inheritance, yet cried out to God saying, "Hear my prayer, O LORD, and give ear unto my cry; hold not Thy peace at my tears: for I am a stranger with Thee, and a sojourner, as all my fathers were" (Ps. 39.12).

David was already in the land, yet what did he know that so many of our dispensational teachers don't seem to grasp? For he was already IN THE LAND, yet called himself a stranger and a sojourner with God. He numbered himself among those who the writer of Hebrews said were "seeking a country (a fatherland)" (Heb. 11.14).

What country would that be? The earthly land of Canaan? Apparently not: "But now they desire a BETTER, that is an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He hath prepared for them a City" (Heb. 11.16).

...David, we are going to get hopelessly lost in our interpretation of Old Testament Scripture if we don't take advantage of the Light that the New Testament sheds upon them.


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Allan Halton

 2010/11/5 22:30Profile
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