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Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Quote:
But we have gone away from the children of Israel


You are correct we have digressed slightly from defining the children of Israel, however i'm sure covenants will come back very shortly.
It's seems to me as if "Children of Israel" firstly meant Jacob's/Israel's physical Children (12 sons and 1 daughter), and then to signify their Children etc? Is this correct? What about after then, i.e. when we get to Moses?


_________________
Mark Nash

 2010/10/29 3:06Profile
davidc
Member



Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

Alive to God, you ask
"So, is the covenant which was broken in these verses, of no significance?"

Zech 11:10 And I took my staff, [even] Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people. 11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it [was] the word of the LORD.

Which covenant do you believe he is speaking of here, the covenant with Abraham or the "old covenant" under the law?

When I read Zech 11 with the breaking of the staffs, I want to get to the end of the book to see how it ends. And there is chap 13 v 8 God says concerning His people Israel:

'And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God." Zech 13:8-9.

Or do you think this means a third of the world will be christians?

David


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david

 2010/10/29 18:11Profile









 Re: A New Covenant

Quote:
“Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah."



Philogos started this thread with this verse, let me boldly update the verse.

"Behold, the days CAME, saith the LORD, when a New Covenant was made with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah."

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the New Covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

 2010/10/29 18:18









 Re: A New Covenant


Hello David,

I already know I have a non-standard view of what Zechariah is saying, so I think I ought to spare readers of the thread my half-baked conclusions. For sure I know I don't go along with what seem like carnal interpretations, to my spirit.

So, while I'm pondering how to answer you, I thought it best to quote from an earlier page in this thread, what the LORD showed Neil, when He revealed His heart to him two Sundays ago. It's worth re-reading:

'the Lord God gave me a revelation... now i pray that i am able to aptly communicate this revelation with my human words; there have many Covevenants, the Noahide, the Abrahamic, the Sinatic, up to the "Better", or New Covenant Which is Jesus and Him Crucified, Ressurected, withe the Provision of the Blood that is suitable to cleanse ALL sin.

and as i walked further into Leviticus 17, i began to see the Godly commands that the apostles gave the Churches in the "Jerusalem Edict(Council)' in Acts 15, to guide Gentile followers, when they were harrassed by those who wanted them to be impeded on the full Realization of Jesus Messiah. The Jerusalem Council's requirements, as led by the Holy Spirit was very simple, 'abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality'.

the divine roots of this are all in the "Holiness Code", including the Second royal commandment of Jesus, which is

"Love your neighbor as yourself" (Lev 19:18b)

the first Royal commandment being a recitation of the Sch'ma, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might". (deut 6:4-5...cant capitalize the "d", sorry)

an then the Spirit spoke into my heart, and said, 'you see this Covenant and that Covenant, as if they are different roads thaT end, much like highway 57 ends here, an highway 14 ends there, but My Covevanants are a continuum, a long long Road, that has One Final destination, Mount Zion ,the Heavenly Jerusalem, God, Judge of all, angels in festal gathering, the assembly of the first born, the spirits of the righteous made and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled Blood than speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. (Hebrews 11:22-24)

Covenant leads to Covenant leads to Final Covenant, the New Covenant, which is the Final destination, opened by the Blood of Jesus, much the same way, a highway is built section, by section by section, and the sadness, the terrible grief i feel is that many of the people of my flesh, are using incomplete 'roadmaps', dissauded in picking up a "new roadmap", by either hardness of heart, or focusing on the terror of history, and by God's design, so that the full measure of Gentiles may be brought in to be Children of Abraham, then by the Mercy of God, they shall be given the 'full roadmap' leading to Messiah in the blink of an eye.

God has not forgotten the Jew, He said He wouldnt, and i believe God. The earth is God's, the nations are God's, therefore i do not believe for one second that the creation of the modern state of Israel, is born of man's will, it is born of God's plan and Sovereignty.'



May the Lord speak to our hearts, and may our minds be renewed by the working of His Spirit.

 2010/10/29 19:08
davidc
Member



Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

The children of Israel cont.,

I suppose we should start at Mount Sinai and the giving of the law.

Before this, though, it should be noted that the previous condition of the children of Israel, from the beginning of Exodus up to Mount Sinai, had been unfolded as resting entirely upon grace. This grace was manifested in their deliverance from the power and prince of this world; in the healing of the water which they had to drink; in the giving of the sabbath in which the manna would be an abiding portion—bread given daily otherwise; in the waters given in the time of their need, though they murmured and tempted the Lord, yet freely given to them from the stony rock; in the power of intercession against their enemies, the Lord being their banner, and Joshua their leader.

But when we come to mount Sinai and to the covenant made with Israel there, The Lord says.
“Now, therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine; and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests and an holy nation… And all the people answered together, and said, All that the Lord hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the Lord.”
Nothing could be more distinct than this condition, “If ye will obey my voice, and keep my covenant, ye shall be,” etc.; and the people agreed, and we know, to the shame of man, what happened.
All the promises and blessings of the covenant with Abraham were included in this covenant, but God made it conditional upon obedience to His commandments. Later God also added the curses which would come on disobedience. Why did God make His covenant conditional to Israel at Sinai, but unconditional to Abraham.

Because of sin, and to show the full sinfulness of sin, for this is the main work of the law, to reveal the true state of the hearts of men, and their (and our) total inability to please God. Alongside the law, God introduced a second new thing: the priesthood and laws relating to sacrifice and atonement. This second new thing was given to them to point them to better things to come in Christ.

David


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david

 2010/10/30 19:46Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Quote:
All the promises and blessings of the covenant with Abraham were included in this covenant, but God made it conditional upon obedience to His commandments. Later God also added the curses which would come on disobedience.


Perhaps we could list what each covenant promised and to whom and the similarities / differences between them? I'll have a think before posting but if anyone else already knows feel free to post.

Quote:
Why did God make His covenant conditional to Israel at Sinai, but unconditional to Abraham.


I guess when we answer the above we can get onto this?


_________________
Mark Nash

 2010/11/1 5:17Profile









 Re: A New Covenant


Hi Nasher and David,

Are we beginning with Adam, or Noah?

I am still reading in Zechariah, for the answer to your question to me, David, about to which covenant I think the prophet is referring.

You also asked

Quote:
All the promises and blessings of the covenant with Abraham were included in this covenant, but God made it conditional upon obedience to His commandments. Later God also added the curses which would come on disobedience. Why did God make His covenant conditional to Israel at Sinai, but unconditional to Abraham.

I believe savannah in her post on p5 in WHEN DOES AUTHROITY GO TOO FAR??? has answered this partly.
Quote:
We find similiar words regarding the significance of a name(a shem)as Abram's name is changed and is made Abraham in Gen 17:5,

"Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee."

The same with Sarai in Gen 17:15,16

And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be. And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

Noteworthy it is that the blessing of God accompanies the name change in these three examples. I tell you that the same is true with each and every one of us who've been adopted in Christ and made acceptable to Him as dear children.

"But while Abram and Sarai, from the time when God changed their names (Gen. 17:5 and Gen. 17:15), are always called by their new names; in the history of Jacob we find the old name used interchangeably with the new. “For the first two names denoted a change into a new and permanent position, effected and intended by the will and promise of God; consequently the old names were entirely abolished. But the name Israel denoted a spiritual state determined by faith; and in Jacob's life the natural state, determined by flesh and blood, still continued to stand side by side with this." (K&D)

Thus, we understand that when God chose Abram to establish a new family, which would eventually become a nation at Sinai (pointed out by philologos earlier in this thread), it was permanent in comparason with what we now call the Old Covenant, even though the 'Old Covenant' was given to that new nation. The nation has continued, but God has given a new covenant to them.

Another part of the answer lies in God's word to Moses in Deuteronomy, in which He tells Moses the people won't keep the covenant to which they agreed; He even gives Moses a song to teach them, to this effect. And, that they will ask for a king and God will give him. He also gives Moses a prophecy about Christ, Who is the solution to that difficulty.

As to the conditional nature of the Old Covenant, no doubt we would quote a lot from Romans! Is not that God knew the Old Covenant was NOT the whole answer to sin, one of the reasons He knew some people would abandon it?

 2010/11/1 7:09
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Are we beginning with Adam, or Noah?


Hi Alive-To-God,

Neither, we were just starting to define "children of Israel" however we have digressed a couple of times in the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants.


_________________
Mark Nash

 2010/11/1 8:05Profile









 Nasher

Beloved,
i know we kind of started off on the "wrong foot". for which i accept my culpability. Hence, you might be wary of dialogue with me, presuming i am of a contentious nature.

Thats not really the case, i receive much joy in the humble, meek and loving setting of my soul, as opposed to my heart, which rises in contention, for there is never shalom in that setting, only the bitter dregs of sour wine.

that preamble aside, you wrote:

...." we were just starting to define "children of Israel" however we have digressed a couple of times in the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants."


How Deep the Mind of God, how can we, son of men, define such? (if that came across as patronizing, i did not intend it to be...AT ALL)


i relish "disgression"...to digress, and allow me to tell you why, because right now, God has given me the luxury of the Wilderness, the B'Midbar.....to wander in it, alone with Him, alone with the Word, far from Jerusalem.

not that i'm "lost", God forbid, or eschew the fellowship of the saints, the tsdaqim.....no. But my mind is restless, and the mind, the human mind, as i see it, cannot receive a Deeper Revelation of God, of Jesus, only the soul and spirit of a man wrestling with the Spirit of God can recieve such....a Baptism, a Deeper Revelation...to be pressed out, or even to wrestle with God, if one is so blessed as Jacob was on the banks of the Jabbok.

i dont know what i'm saying, or alluding to...i might be out of my head, or foolish, but thats not a bad thing....OR, like Paul relayed in the latter portions of his 2nd Epsitle to the Corinthians, i might be so blessed by the LORD to caught up to the third heaven, but in that struggle, Paul, in his weakness, thorn lodged in him, pleading with God, was given this answer:

"My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness."
2 Corinthians 12:9b

how very weak we all are, so as to show His Strength, amen.

(i know i'm rambling, indulge my foolishness, brother)

in Jesus love, neil




 2010/11/1 9:23
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re: Nasher

.

Quote:
Hence, you might be wary of dialogue with me, presuming i am of a contentious nature.


Not at all, you are a person of zeal. I hope we both come to the truth of these matters in faith.


Quote:
that preamble aside, you wrote:

...." we were just starting to define "children of Israel" however we have digressed a couple of times in the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants."


How Deep the Mind of God, how can we, son of men, define such?


Simply because I believe God has revealed his word to us to be able to study and understand (by faith)
If we cannot define what something is, then how can we discuss it in any measure?


I don't really understand the rest of what you wrote i'm afraid.


_________________
Mark Nash

 2010/11/1 9:49Profile





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