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makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 688
Texas

 Re: for your perusal

There are two truths that live side by side:

In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek. God summed up all things together under One. His purpose was to make one new man out of the two - thus making peace. This is a peace we should strive to preserve between each other. Shalom atah - be ashim Yeshua.

The other truth that is just as valid, and I believe you recognize already - ia this - "AM YSRAEL HI" - the people of Israel live!

I ask once again that the spiritual truth be recognized over carnal truth. It is carnally true that men who live in a particular country join together to committ terrible atrocities. Yet, the spiritual truth is that they are all living in the same kingdom - the kingdom of darkness. They are all abiding in the same place - the are abiding in death. This is the real truth of why men hate. Men who hate are murderers and they all abide in death - they do not have eternal life in them. This is why they are cruel to their fellow man. It has less to do with what Nation they are from or what church they have joined and far more to the fact that they are under the slavery of the evil one - doing his will.

The reason men treat other men cruelly is that they have not known the Father or His Son. They may be members of a church, a denomination, a nationality, but that is only their external state. Their internal condition is that they are like unrighteous Cain, a son of the evil one, and they hate because they have not come to know the love of God in Christ Jesus.

There is not a nation or group of people on earth who are good by blood, culture, or creed. Those who know Christ, have been forgiven much - they love much.

makrothumia


_________________
Alan and Dina Martin

 2010/10/12 12:00Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2005
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: Replacement theology and a few words

If what Nasher is promoting is replacement theology, I must say that it really is a gross distortion of scripture.

I am very familiar with those who see Great Britain as part of the lost tribes of Israel, and have read several works on the matter. They can be very convincing until one realizes the evidence is primarily circumstantial. But even if this were true and the Anglo Saxons of Great Britain were descended from one of the lost tribes of Israel, which I reject, that does not mean that the church has replaced Israel. In other words, replacement theology does not follow from British Israelism. Much of the British theory has to do with the throne of David. Again, it is in my opinion a distortion of the covenant made with David which was not talking about earthly kings and kingdoms.

As to replacement theology in particular, one must lift verses out of context and make them say things they do not plainly say to establish the doctrine. I believe any plain reading of scripture reveals clearly that Israel remains God's chosen people and the apple of His eye. I guess replacement theology fits will with a pre-tribulation rapture view of eschatology as it gives a convenient way to say that God will deal with the church in one time frame having replaced Israel with the church, and then taking them out of the way will deal with Israel again. But just because it fits well does not mean that either replacement theology or a pre-trib eschatological view are correct. I think replacement theology gross error but a pre-trib view simply incorrect as I understand it.

The question repeated by Nasher is, "what of the olive tree?" The church began as a primarily Jewish establishment. Among the 3000 saved at Pentecost were Gentiles, but the roots of the church were in Israel. Obviously this makes sense since the covenant with Abraham that Christ would come and bless the whole earth was made with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and Jesus came from the tribe of Judah of the seed of David. Jewish people, Jewish Messiah, Jewish church. But the church was never intended to be a purely Jewish establishment. All nations would be blessed. It was very quickly after the day of Pentecost that the gospel was taken to the Gentiles specifically by Paul and indirectly by most all of the original apostles and others. Remember even Peter ministered to the household of Cornelius.

The olive tree was Israel, but they rejected the Messiah as a whole even though Israel was also the foundation of the church. Their rejection was prophesied and the Paul talks of the veil that remains over their minds at the reading of the law. They understood well the old covenant, but for the most part rejected the new. So God's olive tree, Israel, was cut off and another tree, the Gentiles, was grafted in. This does not at all mean that the church replaced Israel, but is speaking of the opening up of the way for the Gentiles and that the Gentiles would seek after God through Christ while Israel would still reject Him. But then we are told that the Gentiles receiving Christ would provoke Israel to jealousy. This is happening even today on a small scale and I believe will happen in ever increasing numbers as the day of the Lord approaches. At what point we see a huge shift I am not certain. They will be grafted back in though. Paul even goes on to say in 2 Cor. 3 that the veil that is in place at the reading of the law is removed whenever a Jew turns to Christ. You see the veil is more about the Jew understanding the reality of what the old covenant is about rather than thinking is is a way to righteousness. This is the context of the entirety of 2 Cor. 3. The olive tree speaks nothing of a replacement theology. But, as with any symbolism, it can be adapted to just about any idea if you want to force that upon it. Believe me, I have seen some strange ones.


_________________
Travis

 2010/10/12 14:51Profile









 Re:


Why does it have to be replacement theology, why can't it be, "Fulfilled Theology".

Doesn't anyone hear the scriptures, that the two shall become one flesh?

God grouped every single person both Jew and Gentile under one principle, we are all under sin.

We need to recognize that we are neither a Jew or a Gentile anymore but we are recognized in Christ's death, we are dead to sin, dead to this old man, whether it has the blood of a Jew or a Gentile in it, it doesn't matter. If we get angry because someone is touching my roots, there is deep seated issues that need to be addressed.

Love is the fulfillment of the law. It's all fulfilled in Christ, it's a New Testament, a new and living way. A new people.

 2010/10/12 16:31









 Re:

Jeremiah 31:35-36

"This is what the Lord says, 'He who appoints the sun to shine by day,
Who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar -- the Lord Almighty is His Name; Only if these ordinances vanish from My sight,' declares the Lord, 'will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before Me.'"

 2010/10/12 16:50
TheophilusMD
Member



Joined: 2003/12/1
Posts: 124
New Jersey

 Re:

Quote:
If what Nasher is promoting is replacement theology, I must say that it really is a gross distortion of scripture.



I think what Nasher said was that the new covenant replaced the old.

Quote:
I think that most of us will now agree that the New Covenant has replaced (yes I'll use the word) the Old Covenant.



Just because he used the word "replaced" and he's a Briton do not mean he believes in replacement theology. I don't see him say it anyway. With all the discussions here, is it possible that words are being placed in his mouth?


_________________
Rey O.

 2010/10/12 17:09Profile
davidc
Member



Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

Travis, you say
"So God's olive tree, Israel, was cut off and another tree, the Gentiles, was grafted in. This does not at all mean that the church replaced Israel, but is speaking of the opening up of the way for the Gentiles and that the Gentiles would seek after God through Christ while Israel would still reject Him. But then we are told that the Gentiles receiving Christ would provoke Israel to jealousy. This is happening even today on a small scale and I believe will happen in ever increasing numbers as the day of the Lord approaches. At what point we see a huge shift I am not certain. They will be grafted back in though."

All you write in your posting is right up to where above you say "This is happening even today...."

Earlier in the chapter (Romans 11) Paul writes : "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." verse 5. And then :

"What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded:" verse 7

The remnant of jews according to the election of grace clearly speaks, I'm sure you'll agree, of the Jews who become christians and are added to the church at this present time.

But Paul is careful to compare this remnant with what he calls "the rest"; And it is "the rest" of Israel that he speaks of from verse 8 to 12

"(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? "

Verses 13 and 14 show that Paul sees part of his ministry is to magnify his office as apostle to the gentiles that he ...
"might provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them". These some would then be part of the remnant of grace.

Then verse 15 returns to the rest again "For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches". This "receiving of them" is not speaking of some being added to the church, but rather the re-establishment, the restoration of the root and branches, ie all the nation of Israel as prophesied throughout the old and new testaments. This can only happen at the return of the Lord.

If you believe that this is speaking of a gradual process of them being adde to the church, then you are really holding to a replacement theology, where the church is the fulfillment of all the promises to Israel and there is no future for Israel according to the flesh.

I am sure that as you say, some Jews are turning to Christ, even as Paul "might save some". But your expectation that this will increase as the day of the lord approaches, is not in line with scripture. The veil will not be taken from their eyes until the fullness of the Gentiles is come in and the Lord returns to Sion to establish his covenant with them.

This is how, I believe, scripture teaches that all Israel (ie the rest) will be saved. The whole chapter concerns the mercy of God towards Israel and the Gentiles.

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Romans 11:25-27 (KJV)

David


_________________
david

 2010/10/12 18:31Profile









 Re: A New Covenant


To David,

Quote:
but rather the re-establishment, the restoration of the root and branches, ie all the nation of Israel as prophesied throughout the old and new testaments. This can only happen at the return of the Lord.

Isn't this at distinct variance with Peter's exposition in the Temple, after the lame man had been healed at the gate Beautiful?

Acts 3: 18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, [that] every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Last verse: 'Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.'

Isaiah 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.


How is anyone going to turn from transgression? Notice how Paul slightly alters this statement to: 'There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob'.

That is significant because it is completely consistent with the way Jesus speaks at the last supper, and, the way the writer in Hebrews quotes the terms of the New Covenant:

Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Hebrews 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

This is not because of something Jews have done for themselves (as implied in Isaiah's words, but countered in Rom 10:3, 4), but because of what Christ did for all people through His death and resurrection.


Regarding v 16, I believe Paul has mentioned the holiness of the firstfruit twice already in Romans:

Roman 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from [Berry's Interlinear includes the word 'among'} the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

By the time he alludes to it in 11:16 (For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches.) it would seem reasonable to assume he is not talking about a different firstfruit.

He says the same again in 1 Cor 15: 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


Only those 'in Christ' are alive. This necessarily excludes Israelites (and Gentiles) who died without receiving Him.

Again in Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.

'But ye ARE COME...' '... church of the firstborn [ones]'.


The Branch that was cut off for sins - but not His own - is the 'holy' 'firstfruit' from the dead, who showed forth Rom 9:'... the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises ...' through whom by 'the adoption' - which Paul placed before all those - any Israelite may become a firstborn one by faith in Christ.

Of course there is huge significance in the genealogy which Jesus received through His adoption into Judah through Joseph's family and through Mary, a relationship to Levi, but surely these all point us to God's heart and intention rather than man's?

Again Paul:

1 Timothy 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: [so do].

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.


As we 'have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.' Rom 8

Have we not received a new genealogy in the Spirit?
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye [Gentiles] are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


I believe the doctrine of a great ingathering of Israel AFTER Christ returns, is insupportable from scripture. No-one else gets to wait till He returns, to make up their mind. Why should last day Jews? If there is a reason to consider the NUMBERS of converts in a coming revival across the world, surely it is related to the growth in population?

When Jesus put His words into the mouth of the father of the prodigal son, was He not referring to Israel turning back to the Father, as Paul hoped to turn some. 'For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.' Luke 15:24

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

What day could be more 'great and dreadful' than than that which Christ lived through until He cried 'It is finished'?

Paul exhorted, 'feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.' (Acts 20:28)

Today is the day of salvation.

 2010/10/12 19:55









 Re:

Quote:
The veil will not be taken from their eyes until the fullness of the Gentiles is come in and the Lord returns to zion to establish his covenant with them.

To establish His covenant with them?

Land sakes alive, He already did.

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the New Covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

I have presented this before, but there are few and far between of believers that are willing to hear what the Spirit is saying. Blindness is upon the Church for they can't see this. It's so simple, and yet so misunderstood.

If we are willing to learn than we will with meekness receive it, but if we want to argue and debate, than we are not willing to learn.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

I am only taking this one verse because it's here where the trouble lies.

"And so all Israel shall be saved".

We don't say it but we are really negating the scriptures when we believe that ALL Israel shall be saved. We need to keep the other scriptures in perspective when dealing with this verse.

Romans 9:27 Isaiah also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a REMNANT shall be saved.

Our ALL is now reduced to a REMNANT. We have to rightly divide the word or we get into trouble.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

Now take the latter portion of this verse and find out when the Deliverer came.

Who is the Deliverer? It's Jesus! We all should know that.

Jesus came to save His people from their sins.

Of the thousands that came on the day of Pentecost to hear Peter preach his first sermon who was his audience?

Jews! From every country all over the Roman empire, hundreds of thousands of them were there and thousands had received the message of the gospel that day. The remnant heard and were saved. Another day came and thousands were saved again. The early Church was saturated with Jews.

Don't forget, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a REMNANT shall be saved.

 2010/10/12 20:44
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

I suggest we start a clean sheet we each other and then get back to scripture.

Before we do this I'd just like to make a few comments as to where I'm coming from:

I am British but left the Union Flag at the cross and now consider myself part of the body of Christ.

I don't really know what "Replacement Theology" is but by what's been said it seems to be a theology that says the Church has replaced Israel, if it is then I cannot say I believe in this but would like to find out more from scripture (and only scripture) as to what it says on the matter before I make up my mind fully one way or the other.

Let's please stick with scripture when discussing this topic as lots of races/religions/peoples have been persecuted throughout history, I read somewhere that an estimate was made on how many Christians the Roman Catholic Church has killed over time and the number was 50 million.


So can we begin with my comment that the new covenant has replaced the old covenant, does anyone (apart from Planetheus who has already stated his case) disagree with this?


_________________
Mark Nash

 2010/10/13 3:56Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2005
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

David: Again, it is wrapped in eschatology somewhat and I could be wrong. However, I do not necessarily hold to the teaching that God is going to bring salvation to Israel in a different way than anyone else is saved. In other words, the new covenant does not only apply to Gentiles and to the church, but to Israel as well.

Let me put it this way. The old covenant was never intended to bring salvation to anyone by keeping it. It was intended, as is stated over and over again in the new testament, to cause sin to be exceeding sinful and to conclude all under sin. Paul makes a point in Romans 1-4 that the same condemnation under law happens for the Gentiles who made laws unto themselves out of an intuitive knowledge of the fact that there must be a God who was holy. So Jew or Gentile the law concludes us all under sin. That is the only power of the law.

God promised Israel specifically a new covenant that would take in both the Jews and the Gentiles. ALL the world would be blessed through Jesus.

There was a deception though, a veil that was over the hearts and minds of Israel. They somehow thought they could be righteous through keeping the law. (Have you ever read the Talmud? Wow! The Rabbi's discussions on how to best keep the law.) This veil is still in place. What lifts the veil? Paul says when a Jew turns to Christ, the veil is lifted for him. He sees clearly. As long as a person (Jew or not) rejects Christ there is the same veil and the same attempt to be a good old boy to please God.

I do not believe God turned from dealing with the Jews to dealing with the Gentiles. He opened up the way for the Gentiles also. And, during this time, the Gentiles are streaming into the kingdom. There will come a time when the fullness of the Gentiles is come in, and I believe that will usher in the return of the Lord. I don't believe that God at that point turns His focus on the Jews and saves them by some other mechanism than Christ and His atonement. I believe Jew and Gentile alike will enter the kingdom of God through Jesus Christ. I think the Jews coming in must come at some point just prior to the day of the Lord.


_________________
Travis

 2010/10/13 8:25Profile





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