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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

appolus on 2010/8/16 0:25:50 writes:
"This book is a must read.........brother Frank"

Frank, I agree but I have raised the question as to whether or not there really ARE two covenants available today. Is the Old Covenant a still-available second best or is it dead in the water?

If it is 'dead in the water' it raises the question as to what 'covenant' many are really living in.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/8/16 5:37Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

How can I receive forgiveness if I am under the old covenant? Where do I take a blemish free Lamb for blood sacrifice? Where is the scape goat?

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2010/8/16 12:28Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Christinyou on 2010/8/16 14:28:09 writes:
"How can I receive forgiveness if I am under the old covenant? Where do I take a blemish free Lamb for blood sacrifice? Where is the scape goat?"

This is my oft-repeated point. The Old Covenant cannot function without the Levitical priestly system.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/8/16 13:46Profile
BeYeDoers
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Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

I am drawing from different posts her and elsewhere, so forgive me if this is a little messy (I will try my best).

If Abra/ha/m was justified outside of covenant, it seems to follow that we are as well. Not that they aren't chronologically linked, but they are independent events. People in all ages have always been justified be faith, regardless of covenant. However, the pattern of scripture seems to be that in fact, they are separate chronologically. Furthermore, distinct to the new covenant is this idea of a new Spirit within us (regeneration). Romans 8 tells us that if we do not have the Spirit, we are not Christ's. But nobody before Pentecost "had" the Spirit (He was "with" them, but not "in" them). Justification does not make us "Christ's", nor does it place us in the new covenant.

So what happens to the man who is "only" justified but misses the covenant/is not regenerate when he dies? Is this possible now, or only possible to those Old Covenant saints? Were they "Christ's" since they didn't have the Spirit? Did they receive the Spirit after death/before eternity?

I told you that would be loaded, but I've been trying to sort all this out for a few years now. "Where do I fit in?" May we continue to pursue these glorious truths with humility before the throne.


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Denver McDaniel

 2010/8/16 14:07Profile
Christinyou
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 Re:

My righteousness in not counted to me, my righteousness is made unto me by Christ that is in me. The righteousness of God is By the "Christ in you the hope of glory". This is what Christ preached to the dead also; 1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. Why?
1 Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

This is why the dispensations and covenants are so important. We must separate Law and Grace, righteousness counted by good works and righteousness by birthright, Being Born Again, a new creature, a new creation race of The Children of God in Christ Jesus the first born, our Brother and making us fellow heirs with Christ Jesus to the Kingdom of God where in spirit and our soul learning we are already in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2010/8/17 3:37Profile
Areadymind
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 Re:

Ron, does Andrew Murray suggest that both covenants are available in that book?

I have it on my shelf and was told it was a must read, but have not cracked it yet.


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Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/8/17 11:06Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
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 Re:

No, Andrew Murray doesn't state it quite like that but he works on the premise that many are not living in the fulness of the New Covenant. I agree, it is a must read book but I am just questioning whether or not there really is a second option. If there isn't a second option, and I am sure there isn't, what covenant are those folks living under? Or is such a version of Christianity really Christianity at all?


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Ron Bailey

 2010/8/18 4:54Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
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Reading, UK

 Re:

BeYeDoers on 2010/8/16 16:07:01 writes:
"So what happens to the man who is "only" justified but misses the covenant/is not regenerate when he dies? Is this possible now, or only possible to those Old Covenant saints? Were they "Christ's" since they didn't have the Spirit? Did they receive the Spirit after death/before eternity? "

These are key and perceptive questions! I think it is because evangelicals often back away from these kind of questions that we end up with such a muddle of theology and biblical understanding.

I will try to answer them honestly although it is likely to bring the roof down on my head!

1. "So what happens to the man who is "only" justified but misses the covenant/is not regenerate when he dies?

I am glad that you avoid the 'heaven' word. This usually lurks behind all these kinds of questions but I think it skews the answers. There is remarkably little biblical warrant for many of our ideas of 'going to heaven when we die?' It isn't that I don't believe in heaven or that I am going to heaven when I die, it's just that this is never the focus of the gospel although we have made it so.

Let's take the example of Abraham.
"“I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’ ? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”" Matt 22:32 NKJV

"There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out." Luke 13:28 NKJV

"And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom." Luke 16:23 NKJV

There can be no doubt on the basis of these scriptures that Abraham is 'with God' and if that is true for Abraham we may conclude that it is true for those who shared Abraham's kind of faith. Here is an interesting verse…

"The princes of the people have gathered together, The people of the God of Abraham. For the shields of the earth belong to God; He is greatly exalted." Psa 47:9 NKJV
"the people of the God of Abraham" Notice this is not 'Abraham's people' nor is it 'God's people' but this is the 'people who belong to Abraham's God'. What do we know about 'Abraham's God'? We know that this God 'justifies the ungodly'

"What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness," Rom 4:1–5 NKJV

So we may say confidently that those who share Abraham's faith with share Abraham's destiny. Yes?

However… Hebrews tells us …
"And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us." Heb 11:39–40 NKJV

This tells us very clearly that all the heroes of faith from Heb 11 "did not receive the promise'. Amazing. Their lives so often put ours to shame and yet they 'did not receive the promise'… NOT IN THIS LIFE. And that I think is the key to the first part of the answer…

For Abraham and those who shared his faith 'Eternal Life' was a future expectation to be received beyond the grave. The New Testament asserts that we may receive Eternal Life IN THIS LIFE. What the OT saints could only look forward to, we, by grace alone, are to enjoy now.

I'll take a pause to leave you time to respond to this first part...


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Ron Bailey

 2010/8/18 5:19Profile
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 Re:

On the topic of the gospel in terms of heaven, if you study the book of Romans, never one time...not one single time, does Paul present the gospel in terms of, "Get saved so you can go to heaven."

Heaven is only mentioned two times in Romans (at least in the KJV) and it is only referred to.

I was rather amazed when I discovered this. Not only that, every single "evangelical" sermon in the book of Acts neither mentions heaven in the 'offing' when they presented the gospel either. Heaven again is mentioned, but it is not pitted against the non-believer. Is this then a diluted down raw form of covetousness at work that we twist it around? I really wonder some times.

Right now for homework I am trying to answer the question, "What does it mean when Paul says in Philippians...'to live is Christ and to die is gain?'" I mean, I do not feel as if I have ever really known this full reality moment by moment.

As far as the gnashing of teeth, I assume your implication is that you think there will be people "justified" and not necessarily in Hell, but somehow separate?


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Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/8/18 7:55Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Or is such a version of Christianity really Christianity at all?



I think David Bercot is really on to something in his new book when he refers to much of what we are seeing as, 'Doctrianity.' He seems to have expounded on Tozer's idea of salvation by logical deduction drawn from proof texts.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2010/8/18 8:01Profile





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