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Areadymind
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 Re:

I understand and agree with everything you just stated, please forgive me for being so cryptic in my question though. I was wondering if the use of the word "Gospel" being preached to the people at Sinai, ties into the idea of the ekklesia you talked about last time. I mean, I have honestly thought a lot about this verse particularly, and have found myself wondering how to define exactly how the "Gospel" was preached to those wandering in the wilderness.


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Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/8/11 15:11Profile
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 Re:

"...wondering how to define exactly how the "Gospel" was preached to those wandering in the wilderness."

I think the answer to this lies in the fact that there is no article in the Greek for gospel in Heb. 4.2. In my Interlinear it says, "For indeed we have had glad tidings announced to (to us) even as also they..."

Our glad tidings is the good news of "a promise being left us of entering into His Rest" (Heb. 4.1). (Which, by the way, is often totally obscured in the emphasis on getting "saved.")

Their glad tidings, their gospel, was the promise of an earthly inheritance in the land of Canaan... which gospel those in the wilderness drew back from in unbelief.


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Allan Halton

 2010/8/11 16:18Profile
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 Re:

The old covenant had a temple built of bricks and stone, made with hands. The new covenant has a temple built by God and His Spirit inhabits that temple. More than that the new temple was built upon the apostles and prophets, which is now, not then. That builder being God, befor the foundation of the world, that being "the Mystery", "Christ in you the Hope of Glory", the Chief Corner Stone, and God building upon each added stone as He pleases and places it in the body of Christ as He pleases. Born Again into the Kingdom of God by the Incorruptable Seed of the Father, which is Jesus Christ.

Gaebelein has a good grasp on the New Covenant, The Mystery. Here is a small excerpt from his Annotated Bible
Commentary.

Ephesians 2:11

3. The Mystery Made Known

The Church is called a mystery "which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto His holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit."

"Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets" does not mean that the apostles are the foundation. The apostles are the foundation through their inspired teachings as Paul wrote, "I have laid the foundation." But he also adds "for other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." (1Co 3:9-11). The Lord Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Christ is the foundation. This the apostles taught. And the Lord Jesus Christ is the chief corner stone (Isa 28:16; Ps 118:22; Mt 21:44; Ac 4:11; 1Pe 2:4-5). "In whom all the building (fitly framed) together groweth unto a holy temple in the Lord" (verse 21). The building, the true Church is (fitly framed) together, which means that God puts it together in His own marvelous way.

Solomon's temple gives a little illustration of this. When that temple was building, hammer, axe and tools of iron were not heard. "And the house, when it was building, was built of stone made ready before it was brought thither, so that there was neither hammer nor axe, nor any tool of iron heard in the house, while it was building." Every stone was prepared beforehand and fitted into the place where it belonged. How beautifully it illustrates the fitting together of the house, His Church! He chooses and prepares the material and puts each in its proper place (1Co 12). What a contrast with man's methods in trying to increase "church membership"! The divine revelation is forgotten. Christendom has departed from the faith in these revelations concerning the one Church and its architect. But all the confusion, the wrong conceptions and attending evils, cannot frustrate the purpose of the Lord. He is building His Church. He takes the material and puts it as living stones in the place where it belongs. This is the work of His Spirit.

And the Holy Spirit dwells there. He dwells in the true Church, because He indwells every individual member of the body of Christ. We are the habitation of God. As He dwelt of old in the tabernacle, so He dwells in the Church through the Spirit. God does no longer dwell in an earthly house. The conception of a church building being a "holy place" which we must call "the house of the Lord" or "a temple" is absolutely wrong. It is the Jewish idea. God does no longer dwell in an earthly house and yet He has His habitation here. Wherever two or three are gathered together in His name, there He is in the midst; that is a Church and the habitation of God through the Spirit. "Even now in the state of imperfection, by the Spirit dwelling in the hearts of believers, that God has His habitation in the Church; and then when the growth and increase of that Church shall be completed, it will be still in and by the Holy Spirit, fully penetrating and possessing the whole glorified church, that the Father will dwell in it forever." (Dean Alford, Greek New Testament.) END

The Father dwells in His Temple which is us, even by the Son of God who now lives in those that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

This is what is being built; 1 Corinthians 3:8-15 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This is what God is building; 1 Corinthians 3:16-20 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

This is how we are put together, fitly framed to God's specification as the master Builder:

1 Corinthians 12:1-31 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

A New Covenant? I guess. Without question, not like the old.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2010/8/11 21:04Profile
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 Re:

by ADisciple on 2010/8/11 18:18:57 writes
"...wondering how to define exactly how the "Gospel" was preached to those wandering in the wilderness."

Yes, I think you are on the right track. Evangelicals have defined 'the Gospel' to be a subset of key doctrines which centre on the idea of personal decision. Good news is just that... good news.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” Rom 10:16 NKJV

Did you ever take a close look at Isaiah's original gospel?

Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: “Whom shall I send, And who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I! Send me.” And He said, “Go, and tell this people: ‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’ “Make the heart of this people dull, And their ears heavy, And shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And return and be healed.” Then I said, “Lord, how long?” And He answered: “Until the cities are laid waste and without inhabitant, The houses are without a man, The land is utterly desolate, The LORD has removed men far away, And the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land. But yet a tenth will be in it, And will return and be for consuming, As a terebinth tree or as an oak, Whose stump remains when it is cut down. So the holy seed shall be its stump.” Is 6:8–13 NKJV

or Jonah's
Now the word of the LORD came to Jonah the second time, saying, “Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and preach to it the message that I tell you.” So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, a three-day journey in extent. And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day’s walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!” Jonah 3:1–4 NKJV

'the gospel' is much more comprehensive than the Calvary story although of course that is central to it.

Whenever God speaks it is 'good news' even when it sounds like 'bad news'. God declares his intention but that is not the end of the matter...

“O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the LORD. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. Jer 18:6–8 NKJV

that unnoticed principle runs through all God's messages to men. If they respond God will change his plans for them.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/8/12 4:43Profile
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 Re: the Church of Jehovah or the Church of Jesus Christ?

on 2010/8/11 16:37:00 I posted this...
"Try to put yourselves in their shoes... you know you are a member of the church of God, as were your forefathers before you... how will you react to this statement that Jesus intends to build his own church? The tense is very clearly future. At the moment of him saying these words ‘I will build my church’ the words are a statement of future intention. Your ancestors have been part of the church of God, how will you respond to the possibility of becoming a member of a different church with a different mediator?"

Let me approach this in another way. If in ancient times you had wanted to become a member of the 'church of Jehovah' how would it have been done?

God's names are not arbitrary titles but revelations of his character. Although the patriarchs, Ab/Is/Jacob had know the 'name' of Jehovah they had not known what they were to understand by that name. It would be the nation of Israel bound together and to God by covenant who would discover just who Jehovah was.

The NKJV doesn't use the proper name of Jehovah at all. The old KJV uses the name 4 times, Ex 6:3; Psa 83:18; Is 12:2; 26:4. But in both versions the word LORD in upper case tells us that the word is YHWH the name that has become known as Jehovah.

God introduced himself to the nation of Israel by the name of Jehovah (I'll stick to the older usage)...

And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them. Ex 6:2–3 KJV

Often in the UK people are honoured by giving them names which associate them with some great exploit. eg Lord Bernard Montgomery of Alamein was given his title which commemorated his most significant achievement. Names often become so strongly linked with events eg Davie Crocket and the Alamo (just so that I am not accused of a UK bias! ;-))

God was about to do something of lasting significance and he wanted his name to be forever afterwards associated with that event. The name Jehovah is to be forever linked with the origins of Israel as God's people. His promise to Moses was almost like a legal document which is bounded at the beginning and at the end by the signature of the person making the promise. Nothing could be omitted and nothing added. Here is the promise...

I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name LORD I was not known to them. I have also established My covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, in which they were strangers. And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel whom the Egyptians keep in bondage, and I have remembered My covenant. Therefore say to the children of Israel: “I am the LORD; I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, I will rescue you from their bondage, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great judgments. I will take you as My people, and I will be your God. Then you shall know that I am the LORD your God who brings you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. And I will bring you into the land which I swore to give to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; and I will give it to you as a heritage: I am the LORD.’ ” Ex 6:3–8 NKJV

Notice how God distinguishes between the Patriarchal covenant with Ab/Is/Jacob and the Covenant that he is about to make with the nation of Israel. The promise to the nation is encompassed in 7 great "I will" statements. It begins with his signature 'I am Jehovah' and it ends with his signature 'I am Jehovah'. The heart of this promise is a thrilling statement...

"I will take you as My people, and I will be your God."

He had made promises to individuals like Ab/Is/Jacob but this was a promise to a whole nation. It is the heart of the Old Covenant; the nation was to become God's nation with unique blessings and responsibilities and with a unique destination. On the basis of this coming covenant God would give the land to this nation... as a heritage.

How did people come to be part of this covenant? The simple answer is 'by a covenant'.

And Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain, saying, “Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel: “You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to Myself. Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.” Ex 19:3–6 NKJV

This is an 'if-then' statement.
IF you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant,
THEN you shall be a ...

In computer language, if the first condition is met then we move on to the result. If the first condition is not met the program stalls!

It was addressed initially to people who had a shared experience of deliverance. "You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to Myself."

I'll take a pause and then go on to see how this covenant came into being and the nation of Israel became the Covenant Community of Jehovah.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/8/12 5:57Profile
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 Re:

Acts 28:23-31 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves. And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

What one word was Paul speaking? "to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus," "The Salvation of God".

Paul was speaking the new and showing them even out of the old. So the old was in the new but the new had not been revealed yet. Until Paul had gotten the Salvation of God from Jesus Himself by direct revelation, none had ever had or understood this "One Word" Paul spoke. The Jews as a whole would not hear, but individuals, some of them did, those God had already appointed to the new covenant in Christ Jesus, even before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

If the Old would have saved Isreal as a whole, then why would Paul preach "One Word" to them, and in their refuseing, the Gospel would go to another people, who "would hear". The old leading to the new, and the great revelation of the New Covenant given to Paul, who even called it "My Gospel". Christ is the center of all that is ever written in all the scripture, and revealed in word upon word, line upon line and precept upon precept, but they would not.

Isaiah 28:10-16 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

The old had to be done away, or the new could not overcome and swallow up the old and give life in Christ Jesus, the precious "Corner Stone", "a foundation Stone", a Tried Stone, a Sure Foundation, The Pure and New Covenant in ChRIST JESUS, being sent to those that have been given, "ears to hear".

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2010/8/12 12:52Profile
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 Re:

Blessed is the man who truly knows God as his Covenant God; who knows what the Covenant promises him; what unwavering confidence of expectation it secures, that all its terms will be fulfilled to him; what a claim and hold it gives him on the Covenant-keeping God Himself. To many a man, who has never thought much of the Covenant, a true and living faith in it would mean the transformation of his whole life. The full knowledge of what God wants to do for him; the assurance that it will be done by an Almighty Power; the being drawn to God Himself in personal surrender, and dependence, and waiting to have it done; all this would make the Covenant the very gate of heaven. May the Holy Spirit give us some vision of its glory.

Andrew Murray: "The Two Covenants"

This is why I began this thread.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/8/14 3:34Profile
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 Re:

Amen, all our glory is in Christ Jesus and He in us. No greater gift could God give His own Son than the Glory of the Body of Christ His Church, and us birthed son's of God.

Every time I type this, I feel God in me and me in God;
"In Christ": Phillip


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Phillip

 2010/8/14 3:51Profile
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 Re:

From the same book:

“If the New Covenant is to be better than the Old, if it is to be an everlasting Covenant, never to be broken, it must make some sufficient provision for the obedience of the Covenant people.

“And this is indeed the glory of the New Covenant, the glory that excelleth, that this provision has been made. In a way that no human thought could have devised, by a stipulation that never entered into any human covenant, by an undertaking in which God’s infinite condescension and power and faithfulness are to be most wonderfully exhibited, by a supernatural mystery of Divine wisdom and grace, the New Covenant provides a guarantee, not only for God’s faithfulness, but for man’s too! And this in no other way than by God Himself undertaking to secure man’s part as well as His own. Do try to get hold of this.” (End of quote)

This, I believe is what is pictured in Ex. 15.17, when the LORD Himself walked between the pieces while Abram was asleep. The LORD fulfilled both His own part of the covenant, and also Abram's.

And this is what we see in Gal. 2.20. "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me, and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me, and gave Himself for me."

"Christ liveth in me..." fulfilling my part of the Covenant.

"...Christ in you, the hope of glory..."

Oh happy day!


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Allan Halton

 2010/8/15 19:29Profile









 Re:

"Andrew Murray: "The Two Covenants"


This book is a must read.........brother Frank

 2010/8/15 22:25





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