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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
... it rises in the east and Ron Bailey is a replacement theologian. Don't worry, there are a few newer posters here that will agree with your views.




One of the great problems Dispensationalism has brought to us is the notion that somehow the unbelieving Jews are going to be saved in some arbitrary event as if they by birthright are the Elect independent of how they respond to Christ here and now. To call a non-believing Jew 'God's chosen' in my view is in direct opposition to Pauline theology.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2010/7/3 14:32Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3407
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: Natan4Jesus



I am very interested in your (Jewish) perspective on the New Covenant.

I have listened to Zac Poonen's New Covenant sermon's, and what I read of Ron's version wasn't near as easy reading for me (by that I mean, Ron, if I have to learn all the theologians and their theologies, I'm not inclined to want to know about it). I just spoke with a friend and he gave me a new term I fell in love with... theological clutter. That's what it is to me; Sorry, Ron.

I, personally, want to know Christ and Him crucified.

Neil, if you can help me understand it from your perspective, I'd love to read it.

God bless all,


_________________
Lisa

 2010/7/3 14:57Profile









 a theo ghetto of words

why dont you scribes ever just MAKE IT PLAIN?

" Dispensationalism "

and here is the "concept" that just gives me the heebie jeebie's whenever i see it:

"Pauline theology"

anybody uses those two words chould consider themselves lucky they dont have the actual Paul/Saul to deal with, he would be so far up in your face for putting those two words together, probably urging you to get a "Galation" circumcision to boot.

"Pauline theology"?

Paul was a man, so you're exposing a man's theology?

just like the roman institution claims Peter as "first pope", ie, the "vicar" of Christ.


What does Jesus have to say about all this?

it seems to me, that the fellows that have all the theo head knowledge in the world, have just that and that alone, head knowledge.

your books, your commentaries, and your 100 dollar words are your idols, and a stumble for people weak enough to buy that theo drivel. Jesus is just an afterthought to the scribes among us.

the human spirit with its pecking order and urge to control and manipulate trys to take over from the Holy Spirit.



 2010/7/3 15:07
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re: a theo ghetto of words

Natan4Jesus,

Who are you?

How have you lasted so long in these forums acting as you do?


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2010/7/3 15:14Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: a theo ghetto of words

"...not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. Jeremiah 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." Jer 31:32–33 NKJV

One of the striking contrasts in these verses is between the external and the internal. Jeremiah described the original Sinai Covenant in terms of the external. It was the covenant in which he took them by the hand... It is striking that we never get this kind of language in the New Testament. We had a large family and it was frequently necessary to 'take them by the hand to lead them...' It is a vivid description of a covenant in which so often the people of Israel were reluctant partners.

The Old Covenant was 'external' in many senses. God was external to the people. He was with them but not in them. Stephen began his account of their history with the phrase 'the God of glory appeared to our father Abraham'. The law that was given was preserved externally in stone tablets. The blood was sprinkled externally, the waters of ablutions were applied externally. The Spirit of God equipped them in powerful anointings in which He came upon the people.

The New Covenant is 'internal'. It was the promise given shortly before the cross. You know Him (the Spirit) because he has been with you and shall be in you. Paul speaks of Christ in you, the hope of glory. The law is written on the fleshy tables of the heart. The blood is drunk, internally. The water is drunk too. The Spirit of God leads into all truth with an anointing that abides within... even the anointing has gone onto the inside.

When Ezekiel spoke of this same new covenant he did not use the same words but clearly speaks of the same events...

"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. Ezekiel 36:27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them." Ezek 36:26–27 NKJV

Notice that here too we have the language of replacement... "I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh." This declares clearly God's intention of a New Creation. The old heart and the new heart do not co-exist but the new replaces the old. And not only will he effect this wonderful transformation but "I will put my Spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes and you will keep my judgments and do them"

If this is the essence of the New Covenant are we enjoying it? Or are we enjoying just parts of it?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2010/7/3 15:27Profile









 Lysa

Did you ever notice that out of the 12 disciples who walked with Jesus in His Earthly Ministry, none of them were rabbi's, or scribes, or even trained theologians?

The Gospel of Matthew---Matthew, Levi, a tax collector, Jesus told him, "follow me"...off Matthew went.

The Gospel of Mark....John Mark, attributed to Peter, a fisherman.

The Gospel of Luke, Luke, a Gentile physician, an intimate of Paul's, the only rabbinically trained theologian of the lot, and Saul (Paul) was so crazy on fire to squash the Way, he had ants in his pants to take a long journey up to Damascus to break some heads!! So Jesus had to break Saul and make him Paul, and men bandy about the term "Pauline theology"?

and then.....The Gospel of John....fisherman, but i dare say, this dear man was given such a Gift from God.....His Gospel? coming from a plain spoken fisherman, yet just read it and see how Wide and Deep the Things of God, one could spend a lifetime on John 17, Jesus' High Priestly Prayer, and look how far we ALL have fallen from Jesus' Prayer, that they all may be one.

You see, there is the Body of Christ, The Church, and then there are the multitude of religious institutions called churches, or denominations. The gulf between them vast and wide, and it all went wrong in 315 AD when Constantine listened to his true father the devil, and made "christianity" the "religion" of the roman empire.

The "Early Church", hidden, yet open to all, persecuted, yet not crushed, the devil realized that he could not kill it, so he JOINED IT, and the gates of hell creaked open, 315 AD.

y'know, as a Jew, before coming to Messiah, i didnt even know there was a difference between catholics and protestants, all i knew was this, as an observant Jew, was that Christians, catholic protestant whatever, had for millenia killed us, forced converted us, inquisted us, and not just unorganized rabble, but church and government wed together, to kill Jews....thats not just folklore, thats history, i wont bore you with it.

What makes my heart leap is this, that Yahweh was NOT going to leave Gentiles in a pagan idolaturous hell, Jesus is the Bridge, The Branch.

Now my feelings towards fellow Jews is akin to Paul's in Romans 9, just tortured, but i can testify to this, thanks to the religionists of days past, who's hands are soaked with jewish blood, if you say the Beautiful Name, "Jesus" to a Jew...today, a reflexive shudder goes thru them. Not out of Holy Ghost conviction, but because of the long dark history generation passes on about generation what these "christians" do to us.

thats why its hard to evangelize to the Jewish people, thats why I praise and thank God, that He sent His Son Jesus to me, when i was alone on a mountain, no man preached to me, Jesus revealed Himself to me and in me, supernatural. (is that whats called "predestination"? lol)

and these men that foreward "replacement theology", or strut their theo head knowledge...God will deal with them, with me, with us all, and i pray the prayer of the lowly penitent, "Gid have mercy on me a sinner"

in Jesus love, neil

 2010/7/3 15:49









 Re:

"Natan4Jesus,

Who are you?

How have you lasted so long in these forums acting as you do? "


what did i do wrong?

If I've offended you, please forgive me. i realize pastors pride resides in all the books, commnmetaries and theo speak, might upset one if they;re called on this idolatry, but "Pauline Theology"?...yes i've heard it before, and it gave me spiritual indigestion the first time i heard it.

the very term is an affrontery to God, Jesus, even Paul himself, along with "replacement theology".

However i did not mean to offend you Pastor Bob.

 2010/7/3 15:57
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
If this is the essence of the New Covenant are we enjoying it? Or are we enjoying just parts of it?



Clearly the Disciples pre-Pentecost (Acts 2) enjoyed many of the benefits of justification; but it seems also evident that they had not yet become partakers of the New Covenant. They could not be dead to Sin until Christ Himself died to Sin. They could not be 'in' Christ while He walked the earth, therefor they could not be 'New' creatures. The New Covenant was of no strength at all while the Testator lived. It seems then that the lives of the Disciples (and other NT Saints) post-Pentecost must be the example to us of what God provided in the New Covenant.

I find the behavior and Godly capabilities of the Disciples radically different after Pentecost than before. I am often concerned that somehow the fulness of what God has designed in the New Covenant has been overlooked and the risk is that many are living in an experience similar to what the Disciples knew before they were Baptized into the Body of Christ at Pentecost.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2010/7/3 15:57Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

"what did i do wrong?"

Just trying to discuss a serious topic here in a spirit of gentleness. Pauline Theology is a simple way of referring to Paul's portions of the Biblical corpus that reveal his theology. It is easier to say 'Pauline Theology' as a means of referring to 'it' than huge paragraphs of explanation, etc. Not trying to be technical, just used it for brevity.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2010/7/3 16:04Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I have listened to Zac Poonen's New Covenant sermon's, and what I read of Ron's version wasn't near as easy reading for me (by that I mean, Ron, if I have to learn all the theologians and their theologies, I'm not inclined to want to know about it). I just spoke with a friend and he gave me a new term I fell in love with... theological clutter. That's what it is to me; Sorry, Ron.



Hi Lisa
Coming to faith in Christ is not complicated but what sin has done to the human race is very complex. We don't need to know these things in detail when we start but we are encouraged to be 'grown up in our understanding'. The wonder of the New Covenant is not only that it deals with sins but that is deals with Sin; the underlying nature of our race that pursued Christ to the cross.

I guess what I may have to say is not 'easy reading' although I do my best to keep it as simple as I can. I love the concept of covenant because it addresses not just events but relationships. God has spoken to us in words and ideas and I do my best to make those words and ideas understandable to any who want to hear them.

My purpose in this is to exalt the one who loved me and gave himself for me. I was a Gentile with no promise, no covenant and no hope and he came and found me and joined me to himself in a union of spirits and made me his own. I live my life for him and seek to publish his achievements wherever I can.

I am not offended that you don't like what you read. My teaching is 'an acquired taste' and some never acquire it! (just joking) Neil and I have crossed swords many times in the past; I love him still whenever I see him I thank God for him... I will let him explain that last remark if he chooses to do so. I am sorry when people get angry with me but woe unto me if I preach not the gospel... in its New Covenant fulness.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2010/7/3 16:11Profile





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