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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Jeff

Quote:
You confirm that you are not under the law because you have been born from above and have been declared righteous. This Scripture still states that all who are not of God are still under the law.

Do you agree with this?


Paul is reminding Timothy that the law had a specific purpose. You ask, and so do others, does this purpose continue to all men who are not regenerate? Certainly the 'works of law written in the heart' constantly bear witness to the unregenerate, whether or not it is a Biblical pattern that we should employ is another matter.

In all the history we have of the early preaching of the apostles etc is there a single example of the law being used to bring men to conviction? I have found none. Can God use the law in this way? God can do whatever he wants. Should we use the law in this way? I am not convinced that scripture says 'yes'.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/8 8:45Profile
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Joined: 2003/6/3
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 Re:

Ron wrote:


Quote:
Can God use the law in this way? God can do whatever he wants. Should we use the law in this way? I am not convinced that scripture says 'yes'.



The ways of God are given to us in Scripture. Paul writes about the Law and whom it applies to in this verse.

....................................................................................................................

1Ti 1:9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for [the] lawless and insubordinate, for [the] ungodly and for sinners, for [the] unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

......................................................................................................................


Paul states that the law is not made for a righteous person. This same thought is expressed by Paul about his own walk "in Christ."


.................................................................................................................
Phl 3:9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which [is] from the law, but that which [is] through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
................................................................................................................

Paul states that his hope is that he "be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law...."
We see that following the law promotes self righteousness. Therefore God did not make the law for the righteous but for the lawless and insubordinate.

Why would Paul mention this precept if the law is no longer enforced?

Secondly why would Paul state that the law "is made" for the "lawless and insubordinate"?


In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/8 21:41Profile
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Joined: 2003/7/18
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Reading, UK

 Re:

Jeff

"from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm. 8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine," 1 Tim 1:6–10 NKJV

It is intriguing to wonder just how those others were 'using the law' wrongly. It is pointless to speculate, we do not have enough evidence to make even a serious guess. We have, so far as I am aware, no evidence of the preachers of hte gospel using the law in the way that some evangelicals advocate. Wesley, and I am a fan!, said you should not preach grace until law had done its work. Quite a few preachers have adopted this line but I can find no biblical evidence of it.

I think we need to remind ourselves of the nature of the Sinai law, to which Paul presumably is referring at this time. If we read the context we discover that it was uniquely given to the people of the Sinai covenant.

"And God spoke all these words, saying: 2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." Ex 20:1–2 NKJV

That is pretty clear application. We cannot simply take verses of scripture and apply them to ourselves ignoring the context. These laws were given very specifically to a very specific group of people. Of course behind the unique context of the Sinai law there is the universal law which the works of which are written in the hearts of men everywhere.

This law was given to a people to whom God had bound himself my the name Jehovah, (or better Yahweh, but for convenience I will stick to Jehovah). God brought the people of Israel through experiences which virtually redefined the name. The name had been used earlier but Jehovah is uniquely the name by which the people of the Sinai Covenant were to know him.

"And God speaketh unto Moses, and saith unto him, ‘I [am] Jehovah, 3 and I appear unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, as God Almighty; as to My name Jehovah, I have not been known to them; 4 and also I have established My covenant with them, to give to them the land of Canaan, the land of their sojournings, wherein they have sojourned; 5 and also I have heard the groaning of the sons of Israel, whom the Egyptians are causing to serve, and I remember My covenant. 6 ‘Therefore say to the sons of Israel, I [am] Jehovah, and I have brought you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and have delivered you from their service, and have redeemed you by a stretched-out arm, and by great judgments, 7 and have taken you to Me for a people, and I have been to you for God, and ye have known that I [am] Jehovah your God, who is bringing you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians; 8 and I have brought you in unto the land which I have lifted up My hand to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, and have given it to you — a possession; I [am] Jehovah.’" Ex 6:2–8 YNG

So the names parties of this Covenant are very clear. The association with the 'land' are also very clear.

"“Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you." Ex 20:12 NKJV

These details are very plainly specific to the people who gathered at Sinai.

It is interesting that when Paul actually quotes that commandment he detaches it from the promise of living in the land and makes it non-specific.

"Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise: 3 “that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth.”" Eph 6:1–3 NKJV

What application would these laws have to people outside that Covenant?


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/9 11:06Profile
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4801


 Re:

Ron wrote:

Quote:
That is pretty clear application. We cannot simply take verses of scripture and apply them to ourselves ignoring the context. These laws were given very specifically to a very specific group of people. Of course behind the unique context of the Sinai law there is the universal law which the works of which are written in the hearts of men everywhere.



Yes I agree with your thoughts pertaining to context. Yes Paul does indeed point to a specific time and to a specific generation that God brought out of Egypt. And we know that this generation did not enter into His rest because of unbelief. God destroyed Israel and Judah as you have pointed out. For up until this time they were prone to worship idols. God reunited His people during the times of Ezra and Nehemiah and they no longer worshiped idols. These people grew strong in their culture and their traditions. The Pharisees then created a religion based on keeping of the law and not seeking to find a God given faith. It is this errant fundamentalism which permeated the generation that lived during the time of Jesus and His apostles. In the generations leading up to this time the law which is spiritual became for them a stumbling block because their ears became dull of hearing and their eyes grew dim.


Quote:
It is intriguing to wonder just how those others were 'using the law'
wrongly.



Paul states one of the outcomes or fruit of using the law wrongly is manifested in those who become self righteous. Another fruit of using the law wrongly can be seen in those who condemned Jesus. Those who seek to live by the law according to the flesh will naturally become scornful and condemning. The law was made to condemn all, therefore those who tried to live by the law took on the nature of the purpose of the law.

Again:

Quote:
That is pretty clear application. We cannot simply take verses of scripture and apply them to ourselves ignoring the context. These laws were given very specifically to a very specific group of people.




And yes, Paul had to battle against those who had been trained all their lives to live according to the traditions of their fathers. They had created their own religion that was powerless because it was based on the flesh. It is these people whom Paul had to witness to constantly. In this day in south central Pennsylvania, I too am surrounded by many who have grown up under a false legalistic religion. Many congregations have established sets of laws that are meant to promote or maintain an air of righteousness. Many go to church because they have grown up in a culture where everyone goes to church.


With all of that said, Paul make this remark about himself....
..................................................................................................................

Phl 3:9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which [is] from the law, but that which [is] through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
..................................................................................................................

There are examples in Scripture that give us a different way a new way to fulfill the law. Paul points to being in Christ, which imparts a God given righteousness which can be obtained only by faith.

A God given faith is declared in this verse.................................................

Psa 119:49 Remember the word to Your servant, Upon which You have caused me to hope.

................................................................................................................


Paul writes the same..............................................................................

Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
Rom 10:17 So then faith [comes] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
.................................................................................................................


Listen for the ways in which God gave this man a knowledge and understanding of His righteousness which is from the law.

.......................................................................................................
Psa 119:67 Before I was afflicted I went astray, But now I keep Your word.

Psa 119:59 I thought about my ways, And turned my feet to Your testimonies.
Psa 119:60 I made haste, and did not delay To keep Your commandments.

Psa 119:71 [It is] good for me that I have been afflicted, That I may learn Your statutes.

Psa 119:75 I know, O LORD, that Your judgments [are] right, And [that] in faithfulness You have afflicted me.

Psa 119:102 I have not departed from Your judgments, For You Yourself have taught me.

Psa 119:175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise You; And let Your judgments help me.

Psa 119:20 My soul breaks with longing For Your judgments at all times.

......................................................................................................................



The above thoughts expressed by this man speak to this Scripture in Hebrews.


.....................................................................................................................

Hbr 12:5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: "My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;

Hbr 12:6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives." [fn]

Hbr 12:7 If [fn] you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?

Hbr 12:8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

Hbr 12:9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected [us], and we paid [them] respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?

Hbr 12:10 For they indeed for a few days chastened [us] as seemed [best] to them, but He for [our] profit, that [we] may be partakers of His holiness.

Hbr 12:11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

.....................................................................................................................

In Psalm 119 we are given a testimony of a man who has gone through this chastening, and that he has discovered that this chastening has yielded to him "peaceable fruit of righteousness." He has come to know that the Lord is faithful and that all His ways are good.

Enough for now....

Search out Psalm 119 and find out how God gives to man His righteousness which comes by faith in Christ.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/9 23:06Profile
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 Re:

Ron asks:

Quote:
What application would these laws have to people outside that Covenant?




Job also knew the 10 Commandments and God removed from him his self righteousness. And then God gave him a land also.....


God gave Adam and Eve a land.

And we too will be given a land in the future, New Jerusalem.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/9 23:16Profile
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2003
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
What application would these laws have to people outside that Covenant?



If I am understanding this question right, Paul says some things in the first two chapters of Romans that answer this question. He says that the gentiles who know not the law become a law unto themselves. They make similar rules such as, do not kill, etc. and by their rules or laws accuse or excuse one another. In every man is the intuitive knowledge of God. Without this intuitive knowledge we would kill one another as simply and without thought as a coyote kills a rabbit. But Paul is saying whether one is a child of Israel to whom the law is given and known, or a pagan in a place where the law of God has never been spoken, you are without excuse because your very laws that you have invented are proof of your intuitive knowledge that there is someone higher than you with a standard to which you must answer. Both the Mosaic law and the pagan law showed man his sin and condemned him.

But, if I have been made righteous in the eyes of that one with which I have to do by the atoning blood of His son, and if I have been regenerated in my spirit with His laws now written on my heart, the written law of God does not apply to me. I am no longer judged by the written law. Its purpose was to bring me to knowledge of sin, to condemn me, and there is therefore now no condemnation because I am now in Christ Jesus. (condemnation in Rom. 8 is not at all talking about the accusation of the devil or of others around me, although it has been interpreted that way by many. In its context it is talking about the damning or condemning work of the law. I am no longer condemned or subjected to the sentence of God's wrath because I have been made righteous by the blood of Jesus.)


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Travis

 2010/7/10 11:46Profile
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 Re:

Travis

Quote:
In its context it is talking about the damning or condemning work of the law. I am no longer condemned or subjected to the sentence of God's wrath because I have been made righteous by the blood of Jesus.)



Right up to this point I was 110% behind you but I think we do need to make a careful distinction between righteousness imputed and righteousness imparted. If there is no condemnation because I have been made righteous this would really be justification by sanctification. We are not 'right with God' because of sanctification we are right with God because of what Christ achieved on Calvary.

Condemnation was the last stage of a Roman Law court. It was the sentence pronounced by the judge against the man who had been found 'guilty'. If the man were found 'not guilty' then there is not sentence/condemnation. Consequently if we are justified (declared right with God) by faith there is, literally, no condemnation.

I was really pleased to see you insisting that 'condemnation' is not a feeling of being accused. We have used words so wrongly it is hard work to get back to their original meaning. Guilt, of course, in the Bible has nothing to do with how we feel but is the sentence of the judge against our crime. Condemnation, too, has nothing to do with our feelings but everything to do with the judge's pronouncement.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/10 14:06Profile
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 Re:

Ron:

Semantics are interesting because words become loaded with meaning that is as varied as the experiences of those who use the words. I have found that this is especially true in the church world. If I mentioned the term "sanctification" to twenty different people from different denominational backgrounds, I would get twenty very different definitions. I make no distinction between "imputed" and "imparted". I guess I don't believe a distinction need be made. It is a doctrinal construct that I cannot find made in scripture. (There are some clear distinctions that scripture does make. One example is Paul's distinction between seed and seeds.) Before I was born again the law pronounced me guilty and I was under the sentence of condemnation for the sin I had committed.

2Co 5:21
(21) For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Rom 4:23-25
(23) Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
(24) But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
(25) Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

But because of what Jesus did, I now have become the righteousness of God in Christ. I am no longer under the condemnation. I am literally saved from wrath. Romans 5:9.

I am just thankful that I am free from the law's drudgery and constant fear of death. It is so wonderful to learn to walk in the grace of God and to stand fast in the liberty wherein Christ has made me free and to finally be free from the yoke of bondage I was entangled in.

Blessings Brother


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Travis

 2010/7/10 15:30Profile
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 Re:

Travis
The question is 'does God justify the ungodly or does God justify the righteous?'

"But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness," Rom 4:5 NKJV


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/10 16:17Profile
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 Re:

Ron B said, "I think we do need to make a careful distinction between righteousness imputed and righteousness imparted. If there is no condemnation because I have been made righteous this would really be justification by sanctification. We are not 'right with God' because of sanctification we are right with God because of what Christ achieved on Calvary."

This is true, and we move off the foundation of justification by faith to our peril. But let me call attention to a danger here. It's true that "we are not right with God because of sanctification," as you said. But if sanctification is not wrought in our lives, we will not be without blame in the day of Christ.

There are a number of Scriptures that show that justification in itself will not be enough to stand us unblameable in that Day of His appearing. Or to put that better, justification by faith must bring forth the fruit God intended... if we are to stand before Him blameless in His Day. This involves a work of sanctification, of holiness.

"And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you, To the end He may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints" (1 Thes. 3.12,13).

And so, those words: "unblameable in holiness."

Here's another one.

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly: and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thes. 5.23).

Again, the work of this whole sanctification is linked to being blameless at His coming.

Peter says, "Wherefore beloved, seeing ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of Him in peace, without spot, and blameless" (2 Pt. 3.14).

It's justification by faith that is our peace with God, and which enables us to be "found of Him in peace" when He appears. And none of these other verses above imply a moving away from that foundation... of justification by faith. But there must be a continuing in that standing, and a moving onward, such that it enables us to bring forth the fruit in our lives that God is hungry for: specifically love, which to walk in is to walk in a holiness that leaves us unblameable in the day of judgment. (See also 1 Jn. 4.17).

It's possible to neglect this, apparently. And if we do, if we content ourselves with merely being justified by faith and don't cooperate with God in His purpose in justifying us in the first place, we will yet find ourselves perhaps not condemned, but "blamed," in that great Day of His appearing.

...That's a fearsome prospect, and I don't really like setting it forth negatively like that. Paul, in fact, in the the passage I quoted, spoke on the positive side reminding us of God's faithfulness, saying God will be faithful to accomplish in us this work of His that will stand us unblameable in His sight.

"Faithful is He that calleth you, who will also do it" (1 Thes. 5.24).

And here as well, where he also talks of being blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ: "God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of His Son Jesus Christ our Lord" (1 Cor. 1.8,9).

Also this, from Jude: "Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy..." (Jude 24).

...In other words, God is able to conclude, and will be faithful to conclude, the Covenant He inaugurated when He justified us by faith.

Edited to correct reference.


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Allan Halton

 2010/7/10 16:21Profile





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