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ADisciple
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

"There was a second copy of the Covenant, this one was in God's handwriting and it was written on stone. The stone copy was kept inside the Ark the papyrus/vellum copy written by Moses was kept by the side of the Ark. The scripture doesn't really show us how is was stored there but just that it was.

"“Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;" Deut 31:26 NKJV"

Thanks for clarifying that. The King James is a bit misleading, saying, "Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of ark of the covenant..." (Dt. 31.26).

...Which I've always thought meant, "put it inside..."

In any case, both copies, the stone tablets inside the ark, and this copy beside it, were sprinkled with the blood of the covenant (for the ark itself was sprinkled), showing that the 10 commandments-- which were in both copies-- were indeed part of a Covenant which is now "old" and done away.


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Allan Halton

 2010/7/7 10:24Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

adsiciple

The preposition is not present in the Hebrew (as far as I can make out. My Hebrew is very limited) All other versions that I have checked had it as 'by the side' and inasmuch as we have the contents listed at other times, I think they are almost certainly correct.

One interesting aspect of this legal procedure is that the Ark of the Covenant was taken captive by the Babylonians c587BC and never returned. So neither copies of the covenant are now available.

When the returnees rebuilt the temple it is noticeable that God never endorsed their efforts. What I mean is that when the Tabernacle was erected God endorsed it by a manifestation of his presence that overwhelmed the minister. The Tabernacle was filled with the Shekinah.

"And he raised up the court all around the tabernacle and the altar, and hung up the screen of the court gate. So Moses finished the work. 34 Then the cloud covered the tabernacle of meeting, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. 35 And Moses was not able to enter the tabernacle of meeting, because the cloud rested above it, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle." Ex 40:33–35 NKJV

When Solomon dedicated the Temple again God endorsed it with a manifestation of his presence that overwhelmed the priests. The Ark of the Covenant and the Sacrificial altar had been separated for c100 years at this time. When the Ark of the Covenant was brought back the Temple was filled with the Shekinah.

"indeed it came to pass, when the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD, and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of music, and praised the LORD, saying: “For He is good, For His mercy endures forever,” that the house, the house of the LORD, was filled with a cloud, 14 so that the priests could not continue ministering because of the cloud; for the glory of the LORD filled the house of God." 2 Chr 5:13–14 NKJV

When they rebuilt the 2nd Temple, there was a lot of excitement but no recorded presence of the Spirit.

"But many of the priests and Levites and heads of the fathers’ houses, old men who had seen the first temple, wept with a loud voice when the foundation of this temple was laid before their eyes. Yet many shouted aloud for joy, 13 so that the people could not discern the noise of the shout of joy from the noise of the weeping of the people, for the people shouted with a loud shout, and the sound was heard afar off." Ezra 3:12–13 NKJV


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/7 14:27Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
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 Re:

So far we have concentrated on Jeremiah's description of the New Covenant. Here is Ezekiel's...

"For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God." Ezek 36:24–28 NKJV

Here is a promise of 'entire sanctification' (I'm still wearing my helmit!) This speaks of a cleansing from ALL filthiness and ALL idols. We then have a thrilling explanation of how the dynamic of the New Covenant will work...

I will give you a new heart
and put a new spirit within you

and then so as to make things perfectly clear...
I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

This (I am still wearing my helmit) is a replacement heart. Jeremiah had said...

"Crooked [is] the heart above all things, And it [is] incurable — who doth know it?" Jer 17:9 YNG

but now we have the promise of the removal of the stoney heart on which sin was indelibly written...

"The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron, With the point of a diamond, Graven on the tablet of their heart, And on the horns of your altars," Jer 17:1 YNG

this heart would be removed and a new heart of flesh (able to feel and respond to God) would be put in its place.

and then...
27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.

What a gospel!!


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2010/7/7 14:40Profile









 Re:

The ten commandments were not sprinkled with blood, the sprinkling of the ark was was symbolic of a way made possible to approach God and His Law (the 10), by blood on the mercy seat. This is representative of the blood of Jesus Christ remitting sin as in the curse of the Law. He made possible a new and living way to both approach God, and walk righteously in Him and 'fulfill' the Law.

Jesus' sacrafice validated relationship with God and obedience to God's standard. He did not abolish it. He made it more comprehensive.


As stated earlier, i was not sure about everything that was stated, and i have made alot of mistakes in this. Regretfully, i must withdraw from this discussion. In communing with God, i have been chastised for not listening and writing as i was told, but have only been responding to objections and operating through my own reasoning.

After He instructs me fully in all this, clarification may or may not be forthcoming. One main thing He told me was that it is not just the ten commandments that are valid, but the all of the Mosaic Law as well. The only thing that has 'changed' is what has been discussed regarding Hebrews, but even this is 'not abolished'. i don't understand the whys and wherefores presently, however when He says, i will write according to what He says.

( If anything regarding Mosaic Law is written, it's clear to me i have got alot of growing to do first, because i have not yet put total confidence in Jesus to walk in the Spirit of His grace in this: i am at a great lack of understanding presently.)

Many are misunderstanding what being under the Law really is. If a person is under the Law, they are breaking it.
(This is in response to Jeff's question.)

Faith is above the Law, yet faith is not merely affirming something. Joseph Carroll coined a phrase for this mental agreement years ago, calling it "easy believism." In and of itself, this has nothing to do with saving faith.

Faith above the Law is denying our own intentions and ways, then dying to what is considered humanly possible, and rather placing total reliance on Jesus to walk as He lives, has lived, and will live evermore. In this we submit to our own death. Between the taking up of our cross daily, and walking in His spirit, there is the burial of self. (See Romans 6-8).

The curse of the Law is sin, death, and everything that comes through these. If the Law were already abolished, nobody is actually doing anything wrong anymore. (How can there be anything wrong if there is not a law that exists?).
To say that i am not under Law, i am implying to you that i never sin and will not die as a consequence of this.

Though we know that those in Jesus Christ sleep when earth life is over, sin being judged in the flesh, our body does die, and suffer various maladies all the way towards the end of the road. Though we sleep, we will be raised to be judged, in our bodies, Heb.9:27.

If there we no Law anymore, there would neither be a judement, for how can one be judged for good or bad done in the body if there is no standard to measure what God declares right and wrong?


Alot of folks completely miss the point of just what grace is. Without Law there is no such thing as grace, and nothing to measure faithfulness.

Grace flows through obedience to God's desires for us done in the way He prescribes. This is faith(fulness).


Much more could be said, but you will be left with something to think about:

What if you are decieved, and in this perpetuated falsehood?

What if the Law is still in effect?

What if you are wrong, when it has been explained that this is not so?

The scriptures do not say this anywhere.

When Jesus said He did not come to destroy the Law, it means He had no intentions of abolishing it. When He said He came to filfill it, he meant he came to make it completely valid. All is not fulfilled of either the Law or the prophets, because heaven and earth are still here now.

The Laws main purpose is not to show a believer failure. This is to show those who will not submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ that they are condemned. For the believer, it is humbling ourselves as men, and letting the mind of Jesus be in us...following His example, in walking as He walked, to please our Father in Heaven, and not our own opinions of what the scriptures do not say.

Parushim in english is Pharisee; but the word means, "those who seek a smoother path." They were the ones who were always upset with Jesus because he was not following this path, the traditions of those who were in the faith before them, regarding men's words higher than what God said, even re-interpreting and iminterpreting the scriptures to make it mean something more ameniable. They even went so far as to make up Laws, in english called "fence-laws", to make it easier to prevent the breaking of the Law and God's commandments--(for the Sabbath alone, they had made 39 books of rules to prevent one from breaking the 4th commandment)--this is the essence of legalism:more concern about the rules than walking in a Faithful honorable obedient relationship in God.

The Law was never intended to make a man holy, righteous, or good. It is intended as God standard towards prosperity and success. The only people under the Law are those who do not walk in faith(fulness) (above the Law) through the work of Jesus Christ which paid in full a debt we could never repay.
------------------------------------------------------------
i was shown something this very early this morning:

i saw a great white throne with primatic colors coming from it. On it sat One in light so pristine and brilliant it was blinding. His voice echoed and resounded like loud thunder.

He said, why didn't you do what i have shown in my book?

(and there was this lady in a long beautiful white robe before Him cowering)

Her voice was weak and shakey, but she had the nerve to speak, "i may not have been able to do everything you said, but i always wore clothes that weren't indecent and didn't drink or gamble or smoke cigarettes."

Thank God mercy is given to the forgiving and merciful; because this is what she was praised for, though she was sure she didn't deserve a thing.
------------------------------------------------------------

Faith is not faith if it is not diligently seeking God's way he has designed through Jesus Christ.


Pray for Israel, Jerusalem, and peace in the East.

Agape,
gregg
Acts 20:32

 2010/7/7 15:41
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Ron's: "But many of the priests and Levites and heads of the fathers’ houses, old men who had seen the first temple, wept with a loud voice when the foundation of this temple was laid before their eyes. Yet many shouted aloud for joy, 13 so that the people could not discern the noise of the shout of joy from the noise of the weeping of the people, for the people shouted with a loud shout, and the sound was heard afar off." Ezra 3:12–13 NKJV



This is utterly tragic and lamentable. This is what some call a changing of the guard. There is a generation that is 'shouting with joy' because 'something' is being built. There is a generation lamenting for the way God moved among the people in times past lamenting and weeping. The cry goes up together. What a confusion! What a picture of our times.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2010/7/7 15:53Profile
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Joined: 2010/3/2
Posts: 251


 Ark

If the Ark was missing from Jesus' day, were the priests dumping blood straight onto the ground?

 2010/7/7 16:06Profile









 Re:

Brother Ron writes......."What a gospel!!'

Amen brother, I wholeheartedly( no pun intended) agree with you. As one who had a heart of stone taken away I rejoice in the New Covenant. Here is part of a poem I wrote( never wrote a word before coming to Christ, and certainly not poetry, as you know Ron, that would not have went down well in my housing scheme :) just shorty after coming to Christ.........

My heart, my heart, it is no more
It is completely encased in steel
My God, My God, Oh help me Lord
My God, I cannot feel.

I look down in horror
No heart, no flesh , just bone
I look around in horror
My God, I’m all alone

Where is this place I thought I knew
It’s dark, it’s dimly lit
My God, My God, I’m almost at the bottom
Of the bottomless pit.

And in that moment, right where I was
My God He came to me
My son, my son, my son He cried
I have come to set you free.

Oh my God, Oh my Lord
Is it true, can I be free
Oh please dear Jesus, please dear God
Please don’t look on me

My son, my son, you are my son
And I will put you on the Rock
Be quiet now, be quiet son
Shh, do not talk

I have a Son, My only Son
He died upon a tree
He is My Son, He is your Lord
He’s the Rock that will set you free.

And so it was, and so it is
My Father took me in His Hand
Onward , ever upward
Out of the pit, into the Promised land

He set me on the Rock and I looked down
No longer a heart of steel
I could see and I could touch
I had flesh and I could feel

So come to the Rock, come to Christ
And He will set you free
If you will just open your eyes
He will let you see.

This was a living reality to me and and it changed me from the inside out and turned my life upside down. I knew very little of the Scriptures when I wrote this, it just overflowed out of such joy to know that something so fundamaental, so real to who I was, changed and I was no longer that person. When I looked at my wife I saw a person to be loved and cherised, yet prior to this new heart she was a possesion of mine. I could take my son in my arms and tell him I loved him, a sheer impossibility prior to the new heart. I so loved my Lord that I never wanted to do anything to offend Him. He was my Saviour, my Lord, my everything, and He had given me a heart that was alive!!! And so, as one who arose from the dead out of sins and corruption, as one who had been crushed and broken, what can I say about this new heart? Its life itself. Its the wellspring of all my hope and joy and love. Its the throne of my precious Saviour, and He reigns, not as a tyrant enforcer, not as one who has 613 rules to be kept upon pain of death, but as one who is served out of eternal love and gratitude, as one who can never be repaid for raising me from the dead, as one that I love beyond measure and the last thing, the very last thing, as brother Paul would say "God forbid," that I would want to do is sin and grieve the heart of my Lord. This is so beyond " the keeping of rules," that to have it ever presented to me as that, always seems completly foriegn. Praise the Living God for His New Covenant!........brother Frank







 2010/7/7 17:25
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Ark

Quote:
If the Ark was missing from Jesus' day, were the priests dumping blood straight onto the ground?



I fear they did. They were going through the motions of a Covenant that was already decaying.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/8 5:39Profile
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Posts: 4801


 Re:

Ron wrote:

Quote:
This is our clue... the law was not made for the righteous person but for... an different group altogether. In essence the Old Covenant was made for the Old Man, the New Covenant was made for the New Man.

By God's grace I am not part of this group...

...the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers...

the Law was not 'made for' me.





You confirm that you are not under the law because you have been born from above and have been declared righteous. This Scripture still states that all who are not of God are still under the law.

Do you agree with this?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/8 7:12Profile
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
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 Re:

Quote:
Praise the Living God for His New Covenant!........brother Frank



Frank
you encourage me to take a deeper look into the 'old heart of stone' that had to be removed.

Most evangelicals are familiar with...

"“The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?" Jer 17:9 NKJV

but our evangelical habit of quoting verses has robbed us of its significance. We need to go the the beginning of this chapter to see what Jeremiah is talking about.

"“The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron; With the point of a diamond it is engraved On the tablet of their heart, And on the horns of your altars, 2 While their children remember Their altars and their wooden images By the green trees on the high hills. 3 O My mountain in the field, I will give as plunder your wealth, all your treasures, And your high places of sin within all your borders. 4 And you, even yourself, Shall let go of your heritage which I gave you; And I will cause you to serve your enemies In the land which you do not know; For you have kindled a fire in My anger which shall burn forever.”" Jer 17:1–4 NKJV

This is addressed to the southern kingdom of Judah. By this time the virgin of Israel ( the northern kingdom) had "fallen to rise no more". The house of Judah thought themselves to beyond any possibility of the same judgment because of the Davidic Covenant and its solid legal basis in the possession of the Ark of the Covenant that contained the 'signed' copies of the Covenant. Jeremiah protests against this attitude when he says..

"Do not trust in these lying words, saying, “The temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD are these.’" Jer 7:4 NKJV

They thought they were secure because they had the Davidic dynasty and the place where God dwelt. I quotation comes to mind from an old history of Israel..."Nebuchadnezzar's battering rams breached the theolgy of Judah". It is well said. But the theology that was breached was already badly faulted.

Outwardly they had so many evidences of God's favour that they felt themselves secure but in Jer 17 he shows them their inward states.

Their disposition is indelibly inscribed upon their hearts of stone. This is not a condition that can be changed with a coat of paint. It is chiselled into their character as with a pen of iron, a chisel or a diamond. There is no way that this damage can be reversed; it is incurable.

This is the significance of Jer 17:9 when Jeremiah declares...

"Crooked [is] the heart above all things, And it [is] incurable — who doth know it?" Jer 17:9 YNG

Here is an astonishing point. The word for 'crooked is derived from the word Jacob...
[url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H6121&t=KJV]'acob[/url] It is that old 'Jacob' nature still running through the blood of his descendants.

The sin in mind as the context shows is what we might call spiritual promiscuity. This 'proneness to wander' was an inherent part of their nature. Sometimes it is portrayed with surprising earthiness...

"A wild donkey used to the wilderness, That sniffs at the wind in her desire; In her time of mating, who can turn her away? All those who seek her will not weary themselves; In her month they will find her." Jer 2:24 NKJV

That is Jeremiah likening the wandering nature of the old man to a donkey in heat. If you have ever had a female pet 'in heat' you will know their ingenuity in breaking through all the commandments ( and fences) you surround them with! It is inherent nature. You cannot cure a female donkey in heat from being a female donkey; it is inherent nature.

A word of warning here. Judah is not worse that any other ethnic group. This is 'human' nature as it has been since Adam's sin. God's dealing with the Jews do not warrant and condemnation of the 'Jews' as a people. The Jews are no different in their nature than all other groups. They had one distinction, both a privilege and a responsibility. They had greater knowledge of God's requirements because they had been spelled out in detail to them. This brought them potential blessing and opened them up to greater judgment. James in his letter says...

"My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment." James 3:1 NKJV

there is an OT version of that warning...

"Hear this word that the LORD has spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying: 2 “You only have I known of all the families of the earth; Therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.”" Amos 3:1–2 NKJV

...you only have I known... therefore...

But in the Jew human nature is just brought into sharper focus. This is why the anti-semitism of people like Chrysostom is so totally misguided as well and being immoral. It was not 'the Jews' per se who crucified Christ it was the human race, and it was this unbridled passion to go our own way which was the human cause of Calvary.

Is there then no hope? Is that the final word... than the heart is crooked beyond all other things and incurable? In one sense it is but there are other ways of dealing with a stone heart than by 'curing it', by a miracle called regeneration a man or woman can receive a 'replacement' heart. It is no wonder that the Bible calls this a New Creation.

Here is Peter's comment to the New Covenant community...

"For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls." 1 Pet 2:25 NKJV

but notice the tenses here...
'you were like sheep going astray' - the imperfect tense which can be translated 'you used to be like sheep going astray...'

and then a switch to the Aorist tense

but you have NOW returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. The incurable disease of being 'prone to wander' has been overcome, as Peter says as he introduces this topic...

"who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed." 1 Pet 2:24 NKJV

you were healed...for (because) you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls." 1 Pet 2:25 NKJV

As we saw in the promises in Jeremiah and Ezekiel the New Covenant includes a complete change of disposition...

"I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." Jer 31:33 NKJV

"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them." Ezek 36:27 NKJV

...sorry this was far to long for a single post!


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/8 8:40Profile





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