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 Re:

by twayneb on 2010/7/6 16:01:56

Phanetheus:

There are actually several places where Paul states explicitly that the law was done away with. 2 Cor. 3:7-11 states that the ten commandments, the only part of the law written and graven in stone, was glorious, but has been done away with. Ephesians 2:14-15 tell us that the law of commandments in ordinances was in itself the enmity between us and God and that it was abolished by the blood of Christ. Paul calls the law a yoke of bondage that we should never again be entangled with in Gal. 5. Hebrews 10:9 is also very clear.
------------------------------------------------------------

To be brief, as these things were already address in earlier posts:

2 Cor, is speaking about the vail being taken away, so that we not only obey the stone tablets, but operate through regeneration, not only doing the ten, but, for example, instead of murdering, we do not even get angry, instead of adultery, we don't even lust towards it, etc

Eph 2 was not covered, however, it is the ordinances of the Law of Moses (that were against us), and not those things directed towards our benefit. (i haven't studied into that and really don't have much more time for this presently, but will tomorrow, DV. That is what it has always been taken to mean...what it says).

...and the whole book of Hebrews is regarding the 'metathesis' (change) of the old covenant in regards only to levitical law and sacrafice to what was intended before the foundation of the world: a Kingly Priesthood of God.

I'll read the rest later brother,
Your friend in deed,
gregg
Acts 20:32

edited: end phrase added to L. para.

 2010/7/6 20:46









 Re:

AD:

Phanetheus said, "The old covenant was laid BESIDE the ark of the covenant, and not within it. The Old covenant was mediated to Moses, and written by his hand."

No, they were IN the ark of the covenant.

"There was nothing IN the ark save the two tables of stone which Moses put there in Horeb when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt" (1 Kings 8.9).

Edited to add this: And of course that ark itself was also sprinkled with blood.
------------------------------------------------------------In a blood covenant, what is written is sprinkled with blood, not the object containing it.

Mosaic Levitical Law was established so that access to the mercy seat was possible, not the Ten Commandments.

Yur kotz 2,
g
Acts 20:32

 2010/7/6 20:51
Christinyou
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 Re:

Satan would love to keep us under the Law, any law, law of the land, law of moses, law of the 10 commandments, which nulifies Grace. We cannot have both, for satan and Christ cannot live in the same house. That is impossible, even in scripture. Grace is the total of all that God and the Son are together dispensed by the Holy Spirit. This mystery of God revealed to Paul is our total Grace. That is, God putting another person in the believer that we might become in nature son's of God, not diety, but the same nature that the Father has with the only begotten son. Are we sons' or not. If we are, it was the Father's birthing in us His own Seed, Jesus Christ that makes us by nature of being new creatures, son's of God.

This war of Law and Grace was dropped and completely won at the Cross. Grace has triumphed over all law of any kind and it is Now the light of the Father Jesus Christ who is our totallity of all that God intended His sons', even before the foundation of the world. In Christ. A total new creation, The created now rebirthed to become, not created beings, but birthed son's of God.

What does Hebrews 1 say? Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, (Law) PAST TIMES.

But NOW;

Hebrews 1:2-14 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

First of all God our Father can only speak through the Son who is not birthed in us. The Holy Spirit Teacher, Parakleet the revealer of this speaking through our Spirit and our mind will and emotions. The Law has no claim on any that are now birthed son's of God, only to those that believe the same old lie of satan, keeping us under the Law to make Grace of no effect.

Think about it, who is the birthing Father? Who birthed the only Begotten Son in Mary, who has birthed the only begotten Son is those that believe, by His believing Faith that we are birthed with. Did your earthly father ask you if he could birth you. Did God the Father ask if He could give you rebirth, by the full Grace and Faith of His only Begotten Son, Seed that is incorruptable and unatainable by man, freely give only By the Grace and Love of God.

All that the old testament was, Heb 1:1 dies at the Cross and all that Christ was intended to be, The First born among many brethern, not gods', but brothers and sisters in Christ who is our first born brother making us son's of the Same Father. Heb 1:2 thru 14 and on and on and on.

Christ in you the hope of Glory: Phillip


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Phillip

 2010/7/6 22:04Profile
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 Re:

Gregg wrote,

Quote:
Circumcision of the heart is appropriated by faith, looking unto God as the author and finisher of our faith(fulness). This is the only way of pleasing God, and through this, covenant is established for any individual who comes to God on His terms, whether that be before the Old (Mosaic) Covenant ever existed--as in the case the ancients such as Abel, Enoch, Noah, Sarah, Abraham, When the Levitivcal order forshadowed both form and substance of the New, or after it's Levitical substance and form was renovated.



Thank you for your work in this thread...I have a question that I hope you would consider...


Paul writes this of himself:

..........................................................................

Phl 3:8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ
Phl 3:9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which [is] from the law, but that which [is] through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

....................................................................................................................

Paul's desire for himself is that the substance of his hope not consist of self righteousness which comes by following the law, but a God grown righteousness that is created by faith in Christ.

Therefore if one follows the law one can only be self righteous. One can only acquire a God given righteousness if it is God who extends His grace to man. Job is a perfect example of one who became self righteous by following the law. Then God brought about a work that changed Job for good.

My question then to you is this...what provision has God brought to man which enables man to have a God given faith?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/6 22:17Profile
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 thoughts

You all have posted interesting thoughts. To know where one Cov't begins and ends and the same for the other, is to know God's mind and heart.

Let me first ask, "who was the Law made for?"

One may say, to show man a sinner. Or specifically the Hebrews.

God NEVER intended all along to give men something to DO in order to be Righteous. The children chose, in their own fallen state, to clench a fist at the LORD and demonstrate their ability to keep a Law that was intended solely for Jesus Himself.

Now, Apparently, Melchizedek and his time period understood God's Mind and His Righteousness. Along the way, God revealed the Law thus exposing man's desire to gain his own righteousness apart from God.

Man failed and failed [much as they do today in prominent Christian circles] until Jesus came, obeyed the Heavenly Father in totality and was Resurrected.

Now by Faith, we are over-comers of self and fallen soulish consequences.

Much MUCH more can be said. The Original Plan of Salvation has never changed. Really, what we call the First Cov't or Old Testament Cov't is nothing more than the temporary exposing machine and (at the same time) something God used to create Jesus a Righteousness literally out of nowhere! And this Cov't was a blip in the middle of the One True Plan. Like along a road and you come across a patch of sand and then road again. But by Faith, we soar over the whole thing as 'more than over-comers' being placed IN Jesus.

 2010/7/6 22:20Profile
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 Re: thoughts

Philippians 2:5-11 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

What equallity with God, is this? The Holiness of God, Jesus choses not to be Holy in Himself, which He Was, but Chose the Holiness of His Father as His criteria for Holiness.

The fulfillment of the Law did not make Jesus Holy, it only made Him well pleasing to God His Father, Jesus was Holy because His Father is Holy.

How do we become holy? 1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

It is our birthing of the incorruptable Seed of the Father, Jesus Chirt born again in us by the Word, which is also Christ that make us holy as He is Holy.

Everything pertaing to the Grace of Christ and the Father dispersed by the Holy Spirit in us is all the total of All the Father has done for His children, Pure Grace. I love Him because He first loved me.

1 Corinthians 1:2-4 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

What is this Grace?

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

And all inbetween;
Christ in you the hope of Glory: Phillip


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Phillip

 2010/7/6 22:56Profile
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 Re:

Things are moving very fast on this thread, it’s hard to keep up. Just want to respond to Phanetheus again… and then I think I will sit in the back for a while.

Phanetheus, to say the Law is abolished does not mean that now we are free to murder, steal, etc. You’ve charged this against some of us a number of times, and in doing so you are misunderstanding what it means to say the Law is abolished. It simply means that the Old Covenant in which the 10 commandments and all the other precepts and ordinances were given is no longer a covenant that’s in effect.

It means that “Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth” (Rom. 10.4).

Righteousness has not been abolished. But it’s not by keeping Torah that any man is made righteous, neither Jew nor Gentile. It’s by faith.

You quoted Romans 10.4, adding that, “It should be pretty clear the Law is not a closed issue, nor finished, as many other verses do contradict this such as Rom. 8:4.”

And then you added, “Why would it, as this verse bears out, still need to be fulfilled in us if Jesus abolished it?"

He abolished it because there was something it couldn’t do.

“What the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh God did, sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”

The Old Covenant contains the types and shadows of the Perfect Law of God. But the New Covenant alone is able to fulfill that righteousness.

Read that beautiful passage of Paul’s testimony in Philippians—I’m sure you are familiar with it. (Phil. 3.7-11)

“…That I may be found in Him not having mine own righteousness, which is of the Law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith…”

You said further, “The good things are not here yet. The fulness of our redemption is still to come. You and i will still die (if not anything else,) from the curse of the Law.”

Yes, I know, the fullness of our redemption is yet before us. But the good things are here, which under the Old Covenant were not yet “made manifest” (Heb. 9.8). We have now a high priest who is able to minister these good things to us under a New and better covenant. “Christ being come an high priest of good things to come…” (Heb. 9.11).

As to dying, Gregg, I am not going to die. I may fall asleep in Jesus… but in any case, it’s not the curse of the law that causes death. It’s because of the sin that came in through Adam’s transgression. “As in Adam all die…” It’s the law of sin and death in Adam that causes death. But those in Christ are made alive. “So in Christ shall all be made alive.”

The law could not do that. “…For if there had been a law that could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.” (Gal. 3.21).

And right there we see another reason the Old Covenant was abolished. The basic problem with all those who were under the law is that they were dead. Dead in trespasses and sins. And the law could not impart life to them. It takes a New Covenant to do that.

You said also, “You should know better than to speak as though you are ignorant of all the prophets not yet being fulfilled. Accordingly, the Law is still effective.”

Yes, you’re right, much of what is written in the prophets is not yet fulfilled. But it’s not the Old Covenant that fulfills what the prophets wrote. It’s the new Covenant of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ that fulfills all the law and the prophets.

“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached…” (Lk. 16.16) Notice that. “Until John…” Another place that shows the Old Covenant is history now.

And notice. It’s in the context of this “kingdom” that Jesus adds in the next verse, “And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail” (Lk. 16.17).

It’s the kingdom of God that fulfills the law and the prophets. That brings up the verse in Matthew again. “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill” (Mt. 5.17). Christ fulfilled the 10 commandments. He fulfilled the Sabbath… He fulfilled Passover, and Pentecost, as we mentioned earlier. He will yet fulfill the feast of Tabernacles… and all that is written. So it's vain, actually blindness, to observe those things in their shadow form.

It is the kingdom of Christ and of God that fulfills the law and the prophets. “This Gospel of the kingdom…” The New Covenant of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.







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Allan Halton

 2010/7/6 23:30Profile
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 Re:

Frank

Quote:
The functioning purpose of the OC still applies to those who put themselves under the Law.


How do I put myself under a Law that is no longer in force. Suppose I come to the States and choose to put myself under UK Law as regarding the side of the road I choose to drive on. I suppose I could do that but I could not call upon any rights I had under UK law to excuse the consequences.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/7 5:19Profile
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 Re: thoughts

knitefall

Quote:
Let me first ask, "who was the Law made for?"

One may say, to show man a sinner. Or specifically the Hebrews.


I was going to ask this same question... and supply the answer...

"...desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm. 8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine," 1 Tim 1:7–10 NKJV

This is our clue... the law was not made for the righteous person but for... an different group altogether. In essence the Old Covenant was made for the Old Man, the New Covenant was made for the New Man.

By God's grace I am not part of this group...

...the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers...

the Law was not 'made for' me.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/7 5:23Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Phanetheus said, "The old covenant was laid BESIDE the ark of the covenant, and not within it. The Old covenant was mediated to Moses, and written by his hand."

No, they were IN the ark of the covenant.



The Ark is usually known in scripture as The Ark of the Covenant. It served as the Propiatory during the Day of Atonement but it 'housed' two copies of the law.

Just as in a legal agreement today you would have two copies so in the making of the Sinai Covenant there were two copies. One was written by Moses as the representative of the community.

"And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD. And he rose early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars according to the twelve tribes of Israel. 5 Then he sent young men of the children of Israel, who offered burnt offerings and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen to the LORD. 6 And Moses took half the blood and put it in basins, and half the blood he sprinkled on the altar. 7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read in the hearing of the people. And they said, “All that the LORD has said we will do, and be obedient.” 8 And Moses took the blood, sprinkled it on the people, and said, “This is the blood of the covenant which the LORD has made with you according to all these words.”" Ex 24:4–8 NKJV

Hebrews add the fact that not only were the altar and the people sprinkled with the covenant making blood but that this book was sprinkled too.

"For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people," Heb 9:19 NKJV

This copy was in Moses' handwriting. The Covenant agreement was read from this document to the people so that they knew exactly what they were committing themselves to. Three times they gave their full hearted assent to this covenant agreement and the covenant was specifically based on the words that Moses had written and read to the people.

"And Moses took the blood, sprinkled it on the people, and said, “This is the blood of the covenant which the LORD has made with you according to all these words.”" Ex 24:8 NKJV

There was a second copy of the Covenant, this one was in God's handwriting and it was written on stone. The stone copy was kept inside the Ark the papyrus/vellum copy written by Moses was kept by the side of the Ark. The scripture doesn't really show us how is was stored there but just that it was.

"“Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;" Deut 31:26 NKJV

It seems that this copy, Moses' copy, was designed to be removed at times for a long forgotten purpose. Every new crowned monarch was required to write out his own personal copy of this document and keep it as his own personal copy in which he was to read and remind himself constantly of the conditions of that covenant.

"“Also it shall be, when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write for himself a copy of this law in a book, from the one before the priests, the Levites. 19 And it shall be with him, and he shall read it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear the LORD his God and be careful to observe all the words of this law and these statutes, 20 that his heart may not be lifted above his brethren, that he may not turn aside from the commandment to the right hand or to the left, and that he may prolong his days in his kingdom, he and his children in the midst of Israel." Deut 17:18–20 NKJV

(this is an interesting verse for thoughts concerning the value of transcribed manuscripts too. If you copy from the original a 4th century copy would be just as valid as a 2nd century copy... but that is a different topic.)


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/7 5:42Profile





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