"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11
| 2010/6/22 19:55||Profile|
| Re: Neutered Music|
It is sad indeed, but it is true indeed, that men cannot bear having their idols targeted and their high places torn down, without resorting to accusations,insinuations and assumptions.
Rather than call upon their God(in prayer or in His Word) to defend that which is, according to them, of His Own making, the only defense they offer is mocking sarcasm and an appeal to those who are on their side.
I'm reminded of King Rehoboam in 1 Kings chapter 12.
1 Kings 12:6-10,13,14 And king Rehoboam consulted with the old men that stood before Solomon his father while he yet lived, and said, How do ye advise that I may answer this people? And they spoke to him, saying, If thou wilt be a servant to this people this day, and wilt serve them, and answer them, and speak good words to them, then they will be thy servants for ever. But he forsook the counsel of the old men, which they had given him, and consulted with the young men that had grown up with him, and who stood before him: And he said to them, What counsel give ye that we may answer this people, who have spoken to me, saying, Make the yoke which thy father did put upon us lighter? And the young men that had grown up with him spoke to him, saying, Thus shalt thou speak to this people who spoke to thee, saying, Thy father made our yoke heavy, but make thou it lighter to us; thus shalt thou say to them, My little finger shall be thicker than my father's loins. And the king answered the people roughly, and forsook the old men's counsel that they gave him; And spoke to them after the counsel of the young men...
Although the above historical account was of another nature and for a different purpose I trust the discerning reader will make the application.
Appeal after appeal is made to, "these lyrics", in this song, or claims to an individual made that, "they are the real deal." Their claims that, "they are the real deal" are based on the subjective criteria of, "I've actually met them."
Then others are spoken of in comparison to these who, "are the real deal" as merely "regular"..."Christian music artists".
This subjective reasoning is certainly not to be trusted. "This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish." (James 3:15)
"But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, easily entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy."
Partiality rules among men of repute and so many have been infected with the disease of being respecters of men's persons.
"A judge should be perfectly neuter[ed] in feeling, that he may decide with impartiality."
One may make boast of theologically correct lyrics all the same. I join in praise to God for such lyrics. Yet the mandate of Scripture is to PREACH the Gospel. The method of God's choosing to save and win souls is the foolishness of PREACHING. Most(not all) of those who listen and like this music(theologically correct or not)will not and cannot tolerate the PREACHING and Teaching of the WORD.
That God uses some of this, by no means proves that His seal of approval is upon it. He uses it in spite of it. True PREACHERS are not pragmatists.
30 years ago this stuff was on the rise and gaining popularity. Today it is in full bloom and the flower that has bloomed can be likened to the venus fly trap.
Many voices from the past warned of this coming plague, but few heeded those voices. We are reaping what the many planted against the counsel of the wise. The older men have been silenced and the younger men are being consulted.
I am not a traditionalist by any means, but wisdom and truth can never grow old.
To those who will throw this which is written to the wayside as opinion and speculation,I have nought but this to say,"Take heed how ye hear". The fruit has long ripened and it is infested with mold and bacteria.
To those who can appreciate the posts I have made on this thread, I say, "Watch and pray". May we not be tempted to join this bandwagon nor enter into judgement with them.
God alone is the Judge of His people. His people who have part in this will receive what He sees fit. His people are not condemned like and with the world, but nevertheless the LORD judges His people. I trust none would deny this.
To those who'd argue that these musicians are preaching, I'd bid them to take such argument to the throne of the Holy One, Who appointed and annointed PREACHING and PREACHERS from the beginning, and Who also defines PREACHING and calls PREACHERS.
Knowing this though, that the flesh(carnal)will ALWAYS be perched on the altar of its idol ready to pounce upon the spirit(spiritual).
May God bless the readers hereof who have ears to hear.
| 2010/6/23 0:35||Profile|
| Re: |
It should be noted that singing is considered a form of preaching. God ordained the song of Moses in Deuteronomy as a means of serving as a witness to Israel. It wad a song to be taught to every generation. Additionaly, the prophets used song as a means of preaching. The book of Lamentations is one such example. If memory serves correct, Ezekiel also used it.
| 2010/6/23 6:39||Profile|
North Pole, Alaska
| Re: |
Could you provide what you think the proper format for preaching the gospel is?
"Most(not all) of those who listen and like this music(theologically correct or not)will not and cannot tolerate the PREACHING and Teaching of the WORD."
Could you provide some proof to substantiate this liberal accusation? Listeners aside, if you were to investigate the lives of some of the Christian rappers, you would find that they in no way presume that their music is stand alone sufficient for growth in the body of Christ or a replacment for preaching the gospel (again, if you could you provide me with what your idea of the right format for preaching the gospel is...).
In fact, Shai Linne is being discipled in the ways of an elder at Mark Dever's church in D.C. as we speak. Artist "Flame" is attending the undergraduate school of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary for a major in biblical counseling. "the Ambassador" was a teaching pastor at a church in Philly and a graduate from Dallas Theological Seminary, but has recently resigned from his record label and ministry due to moral failure in his marriage. Pragmatism is not a term I'd use with these guys, their first priority is to glorify God, not appeal to man.
| 2010/6/23 10:44||Profile|
North Pole, Alaska
| Re: Christian music|
There is not one person on this thread that can tell you with biblical authority which styles of music (excluding lyrics)are right and wrong. Trust God and the Holy Spirit to guide you and your son in this decision. It is encouraging that you want the Lordship of Christ in all areas of life.
If I could offer a bit of advice, I was about your sons age when I first discovered listening of music for pleasure- keep him away from secular radio stations! They are too easily accessed on a radio in a childs bedroom, and the messages that are presented foster a love for the world. Good luck,
| 2010/6/23 10:52||Profile|
| Re: Music and glorifying God|
Music draws man. Any music. That is not the same as Jesus drawing man.
Music moves man. Any music. The resolution of chords, crescendos, the beat etc. are examples. It is easy to mistake being moved by music for being moved by the Spirit of God.
Re. The argument that God uses music: God can use anything, donkeys for example. That doesn't mean we should invest in donkey farms.
Re. Its the words that count. If that were true there would be no legalistic, dead, churches where the word of God is hammered home weekly. What is the politically correct phrase? Dead orthodoxy?
Re. CCM brings the young people into church where they can be exposed to the gospel. Is that what our Sunday gathering is to be? Is that where evangelism occurs? Sex and money draw the unsaved. I was going to say we don't use those but I guess the money factor has been proved in the prosperity church circles. And secular advertising proves the other factor outside of the church.
Most notice when the Power of God lifts off a congregation. It remains a vague sense and no one articulates it. Music is a functional substitute (for power, for the Spirit of God). It seems to work and satisfy (placate).
SAVANNAH SAID: It is sad indeed, but it is true indeed, that men cannot bear having their idols targeted and their high places torn down, without resorting to accusations,insinuations and assumptions. I would say, Without being offended, and acting out that offense.
I am reading a book along with a Sunday school class (Counterfeit Gods by Timothy Keller). He reminds readers that only God can know our hearts, particularly when it comes to idols (the heart of the old man being an idol factory). While I do not recommend the study of books in Sunday school, reactions to just the introduction was remarkable. One woman confessed the biblically good cause she had been working for had become an idol and God had led her out of that. A couple was insistent that children cannot be an idol for parents, gave the example of their daughter, and pressed the group for agreement on this point.
Warning bells indicating the possible proximity to an idol, indicating something worth prayerful examination (not knee-jerk condemnation) include: What do I sacrifice to? What do I LOVE? What do I TRUST? What do I OBEY? [Idols actually control us since we think we must have them or life is meaningless.]
Re: music and idols: I have noticed that many churches have replaced denominational identification with the advertisement of Contemporary Worship. What ever else that MAY mean, that means different music, that means CCM. Is it really true that people cannot worship God without CCM? Very odd. What is going on, what is moving the person who raises their hands singing CCM and does not raise their hands singing the Doxology?
Reading this thread, and I mean ALL VIEW POINTS, has been helpful to me. All gods but God are crushed under the weight of man's expectations (Eph. 3: 20-23). Jesus is a perfect example. Perhaps music was lifted up higher than the presence of God, than God, in the Welsh revival, reported to be remarkable for its music and short duration. I also know there are times that I am pressed to sing, out of the abundance of my heart for Him. It is not unlike the press to testify, to give Glory to God, for specific cleansing and freedom from sin.
Again, this has been one of the better threads on this subject.
| 2010/6/23 14:25||Profile|
| Re: |
Joan, I appreciate your post..very insightful and right on.
Music touches the emotions and by it may impact the body as well. Even seen females swaying their body's in response to the rhythm? This concept can be expanded and explained in detail, but that is beyond the scope of this particular post.
I have been thinking about this issue and the question challenges me: "what constitutes godly music?" How can I discern what is godly?
The other day I found a modern hymn on Cyber-hymnal and played it. I knew the song well so I sang along with it. As I thought of the words and how the harmonies enhanced the meaning of the lyrics, I felt a real joy well up with in...it was a divine joy, one I cannot produce on my own, one that potentially can move one to tears. The song? "Tender Love of Jesus".
Perhaps, this is an indicator when the Holy Spirit is pleased with the music? Something to consider....
| 2010/6/23 15:40||Profile|
North Pole, Alaska
| Re: |
Thanks for the insight, but the strawman arguments you've highlighted as examples of why people use "CCM" are shallow at best. I don't think anyone here is attempting to defend some pragmatic reason for using music in ministry, like the arguments you listed; I know my point was to those who broad brush other christians intentions and assume what listenters will and will not respond to because of the type of music being performed. I'm not trying to be sharp, just direct.
I do like this point Joan:
"Music moves man. Any music. The resolution of chords, crescendos, the beat etc. are examples. It is easy to mistake being moved by music for being moved by the Spirit of God."
I agree with this completely- just look the danger of abusing alter calls by playing "just as I am" over and over again. Can people respond under the Holy Spirits conviction? sure. Can God work in those who are moved by emotion? Of course. But the danger remains that one may simply be having an emotional experience and nothing more. Same with hip hop, same with Stryper, or those Gaither fellows.
I listen and learn from expository hip hop, and I am secure in my freedom to do so; yet I don't abuse that freedom by trying to push it on everyone else. To do so would be sinful and unloving. If I so desired, I could try to popularize it among some of the youth in my church, yet I don't, out of respect for their parents, who may not agree with my choice of music. I am secure enough that God is being honored that I don't feel the need to ensure it's survival through mass marketing among everyone I meet :)
| 2010/6/23 17:45||Profile|
| Re: |
as many of Watts' songs were tunes from popular barroom songs that were given lyric that honored God.
This argument has been put forth to justify rock music. However, I have been told this is not true. I cannot prove it, however, can you prove your statement to be the truth?
| 2010/6/24 8:14||Profile|
| Re: Christian music|
I have been thinking about this issue since you posted...Savannah and Joan posted long articles about CCM and for some this is still not good enough - because they may have pasted/copied their articles - evidence on why CCM should not be embraced.
Many will argue it is because of taste and this is true - sometimes. You can have classical music and southern gospel and the probability is that lovers of one will not enjoy the other because of taste. Rock music is totally different. As I was thinking about music, I thought of a few things and came up with some thoughts...I shared these with my husband to get his input and he agreed...
Here is my list:
1. Music is an expression of the emotions, propelled by the mind, what one thinks and his reactions to what is.
2. Music is all around us. We say birds sing because of the warbling sounds that issue from their mouths. Experts will not call it music, but to the ignorant like me, it is musical and I love to hear them sing. (Maybe the experts never heard a mocking bird sing?)
3. Heaven is filled with music. John writes about it in Revelation. Others who have had visions of heaven mention the music as being so beautiful.
4. Lucifer was a musician in heaven. Isaiah 14:11-12. As Gods arch enemy he will use whatever means, primarily music, to thwart Gods will.
5. Musicians who promote the devils music have an evil look about themselves. They look angry; there is no peaceful look about themselves.
6. These musicians look so evil I would not trust my grandchildren with them. It is no telling what they will do to them.
7. The sound of the devils music is one of frustration, anger.
8. There is happy music, but it may not necessarily be religious, like yodeling although this form has been used with Christian songs. Happy music can bring laughter, delight.
9. Rock music amplifies the dark side of life, the result of sin in a persons life. Why would one want to sing about conflict, heartbreak, distress?
10. Culture has discouraged males from expressing their emotions. I wonder whether they are finding their outlet in sports and music? They love contact sports and rock music. Both throb with heavy emotion. Many who star in these sports and music look angry, frustrated; not like one who I could trust in any way, least of all my grandchildren.
11. If music is neutral, why do so many of these rock musicians abuse drugs? Chase women? Rape? Die young? Back in the 1960s Bob Harrington, a then Southern Baptist evangelist to Bourbon Street, New Orleans, used to say that when Christian musicians pass over to the secular, they will die young. If you check it out, this is true. (My quoting Harrington in no way endorses what he is today.)
12. Rock music is not peaceful. It is absolutely irritating.
13. Loud music, regardless of the genre is irritating - it just about drives one crazy.
14. Most CCM amplify their sound to decibels deemed unsafe for the hearing.
15. Too many modern music forms are difficult to emulate. Simple singing is not.
These are a few of my thoughts on this issue. Likely will think of more as the day passes
| 2010/6/24 9:03||Profile|