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murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Tozer--Openly admits coming by th the way of the mystics.

Martyn Lloyd-Jones recalled, 'Dr. Tozer and I shared a conference years ago, and I appreciated his ministry and his fellowship very much. One day he said to me: 'Lloyd-Jones, you and I hold just about the same position on spiritual matters, but we have come to this position by different routes.' 'How do you mean?' I asked. 'Well,' Tozer replied, 'you came by way of the Puritans and I came by way of the mystics.'

But then Tozer goes onto to say...

"Some of my friends good-humoredly – and some a little bit severely – have called me a 'mystic.' Well I'd like to say this about any mysticism I may suppose to have. If an arch-angel from heaven were to come, and were to start giving me, telling me, teaching me, and giving me instruction, I'd ask him for the text. I'd say, 'Where's it say that in the Bible? I want to know.' And I would insist that it was according to the scriptures, because I do not believe in any extra-scriptural teachings, nor any anti-scriptural teachings, or any sub-scriptural teachings. I think we ought to put the emphasis where God puts it, and continue to put it there, and to expound the scriptures, and stay by the scriptures. I wouldn't – no matter if I saw a light above the light of the sun, I'd keep my mouth shut about it 'til I'd checked with Daniel and Revelation and the rest of the scriptures to see if it had any basis in truth. And if it didn't, I'd think I'd just eaten something I shouldn't, and I wouldn't say anything about it. Because I don't believe in anything that is unscriptural or that is anti-scripture."

What Difference Does the Holy Spirit Make? by A. W. Tozer

He recommends that in prayer we practice a further stripping down of everything, even of our theology.

"For it sufficeth enough, a naked intent direct unto God without any other cause than Himself....lapped and folden in one word, for that thou shouldest have better hold thereupon, take thee but a little word of one syllable: for so it is better than of two, for even the shorter it is the better it accordeth with the work of the Spirit. And such a word is this word GOD or this word LOVE"

"The Cloud of Unknowing" A W Towzer

Of course, the Contemplative Prayer movement takes it lead from just this very practice repeating a word such as "love" or "Jesus" over and over until one enters into "the Presence". Even the title of the work "The Cloud of Unknowing" betrays the mystical intent of the writer.

The gist is that we must enter the presence by UN-knowing, as opposed to meditating on an objective reality, i.e., the Scriptures.

I don't believe Tozer practiced this, in fact, on pg. 76 he writes:

"It is important that we get still to wait on God. And it is best that we get alone, preferable with our Bible outspread before us. Then the happy moment when the Spirit begins to illuminate the Scriptures, and that which had been only a sound, or at best a voice, now becomes an intelligible word, warm and intimate and clear as the word of a dear friend".

I can only assume that Tozer had an appreciation for the mystics, for their devotion, but that this appreciation didn't translate into his following their practices.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2010/6/9 8:13Profile
MikeH
Member



Joined: 2006/9/21
Posts: 116


 Re: Mysticism: A. W. Tozer reconsidered

While Tozer quotes from the 'Cloud of Unknowing', all he is doing is using the quotation as a way of summarising his own understanding, not to denigrate the bible, but to provide a clearer explanation than he thinks he could in his own words.

Jesus is quoted as saying, "I am the way, the truth, and the life", but, like so often, the full statement is not included, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: NO MAN COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME." He is the way, where, to the Father. Where do you want to get to, close to a book, even the most wonderful book in the world, or close to God? As the old hymn says,

"My goal is God Himself, not joy, nor peace,
Nor even blessing, but Himself, my God."
( https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=21742&forum=34&2 )

All Tozer is saying, which any good bible teacher should be saying, is our goal is God, not a book.

Personally, I'm not even sure the book will be there in eternity, though it might be. But I am sure that God will be there: "Rev 22:3-4 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads."

Kind regards

Mike

PS Please excuse capitals, I am not shouting, but can't find any other function that allows emphasis such as bold, underline etc, except caps.

 2010/6/9 10:23Profile









 Re: Can you have it both ways?


murrcolr wrote:

He [Tozer] recommends that in prayer we practice a further stripping down of everything, even of our theology.

"For it sufficeth enough, a naked intent direct unto God without any other cause than Himself....lapped and folden in one word, for that thou shouldest have better hold thereupon, take thee but a little word of one syllable: for so it is better than of two, for even the shorter it is the better it accordeth with the work of the Spirit. And such a word is this word GOD or this word LOVE"

"The Cloud of Unknowing" A W Towzer


This is not a Tozer quote. "THE CLOUD OF UNKNOWING" was written by an anonymous British author. Tozer referred to it, as it was in his library.

I assume it was a simple mistake, for later you refute the same author and state that you believe that Tozer did NOT practice this mantra focus as prayer.

This is at the core of Riggle's argument concerning Tozer's ideas. Tozer boasts to be a sola scripture guy....everything comes through the filter of scripture.


"I am a Bible Christian and if an archangel with a wingspread as broad as a constellation shining like the sun were to come and offer me some new truth, I'd ask him for a reference. If he could not show me where it is found in the Bible, I would bow out and say, I'm awfully sorry, you don't bring any references with you"....A. W. Tozer


................................................

But when it comes to the mystics,and there experiential concoctions, the Bible flies away into the blissful realms.

Another quote from Riggle;

"But the problem is not with the readily identifiable archangel. It is with those subjective experiences. This is where we must unflinchingly apply the standard of God's Word. It is also with our choice of spiritual teachers. Tozer did not ask for spiritual references when he effusively praised the ecstatic utterances of Julian of Norwich, nor of the "insights" of that "master of the inner life" (his words), Evelyn Underhill, the ecumenicist mystic.

If he would have asked for proper Scriptural backing from them, and found them wanting, he would have saved himself much confusion - and the church much polluting error that is now hard to eradicate."...Riggle

There is some truth to this. You can't have it both ways.


 2010/6/9 10:35









 Re: Close to the Book of God, or close to the God of the book?



MikeH.....What a blessed post, and one that I needed to hear! Thank you. I need to get back to that simplicity...Sometimes I get lost in "points"; in definition. You hit it on the head!

This is the reason that I have Tozer copied throughout my bible, and why I have been so blessed by his work. I found Jesus in his pen.

 2010/6/9 10:44
JB1968
Member



Joined: 2009/8/31
Posts: 416
Ohio USA

 Re:

Which is higher and has more authority: the Bible or the God of the Bible? Is it Him that we are seeking? or just learning the text book to where we become a dead Pharisee?
Can we really experience and know God? or just know His Book? Salvation in more that a change of status. It is knowing God Himself. That is the "mystical" aspect of salvation. A real, personal knowledge of God. Does that negate the Bible, or hold more authority than His Word? Does it contradict His Word? Of course not!
I understand those who always have an "experience" and are looking for angels or dew on the grass are wrong when they put this on the same level as the Bible. Satan desires to ensare people to some emotional experience by placing it higher and of more authority than the Word. Just because there are some "crackpots" (excuse the phraseology)who take it to the nth degree, that does not mean we do not pray intensely and study the Word of God with all of our heart. Tozer is far from these modern "Christian yoga worshippers" or whatever the new name is for them.
Another difference between Tozer and some of the modern church is that he believed that a Christian is to live godly, holy, pure lives. So many in todays church don't practice holiness of life and separation from sinful living. So many things of sin that those men and women of God of the past warned against are practised in modern Christianity.


_________________
James

 2010/6/9 10:54Profile
meltond
Member



Joined: 2003/10/2
Posts: 16
Oklahoma

 Re: Mysticism: A. W. Tozer reconsidered

Brothers and Sisters,

Judge the tree by its fruit. IT seems that it is easy for synical people to focus upon spinters in the eyes of others, while ignoring the beams in their own eyes. Dr. Tozer has been dead for several decades now, and his ministry is yet producing fruit; can you make this claim for your own life? This straining out of gnats is ridiculous, peevish, and wholly unbecoming of a child of God. This precious brother, Dr. Tozer, has helped, and is helping in this hour, myriads of believers with his preaching and writing. This post is wholly bothersome to me, and the critical, and unmerited tense in which is it written.


_________________
Derek Melton

 2010/6/9 11:24Profile
JB1968
Member



Joined: 2009/8/31
Posts: 416
Ohio USA

 Re:

Amen, I think its time to draw it to a close.


_________________
James

 2010/6/9 13:02Profile









 Re: master of the inner life?

I suppose it would be a matter of application, wouldn't it?

Many, many have been blessed by the Catholic mystics, applying their insights and revelation to the Bible. Most can leave it there. The problem as I see it, is when one applies the methodology; believing and practicing it as a vehicle to gain revelation and insight into the ways of God.

The mindset is, "Well, they received this superior experience, and they possess a more superior devotion to God than me, then perhaps I should do what they do!" Then error comes rushing through the thumb-hole in the dyke.


The error in Catholic mysticism is that God dwells within us...[everyone, really] and we can unlock His Presence and communication by focusing upon him inwardly, by means of a methodology. Mantras, guided imagery, creating a selfless void within. This is called "Contemplative".....focus upon the stillness. Guyon stated that God was always in her...and that she unlocked the door through these practices...[ Quietism]


It creates a religion where there is no sin, there is only self...that must be eliminated.."even our theology". This is at the crux of pure Babylonian priesthood, and is called "TRANSCENDENTAL" TODAY, AS IS PRACTICED IN ALL BHUDDIST CULTS, AND THE HINDI YOGAS.


This is where the Roman Catholic church inherited these practices...as they continued the worship of the queen of heaven, and maintained the Priesthood of this foul religion, just misting up the nomenclature a bit; CHRISTIANIZING Babylon. The practice of their cloistered Priesthood also remained practicing the same methods as their predecessors did for millennia. Inward, Contemplative [inward] Meditative prayer...[inward]


Tozer was enthralled by them, but was able to apply the same spiritual insights attained there, to the church. [ mostly]. My question is "Did he go overboard a bit?"


"Tozer did not ask for spiritual references when he effusively praised the ecstatic utterances of Julian of Norwich, nor of the "insights" of that "master of the inner life" (his words), Evelyn Underhill, the ecumenicist mystic." Tom Riggle


Here is an exert of Underhill about unification with "god"...

"Unification symbolizes the somewhat more elusive—but never eclipsed—nondual state,
recognizing emptiness as form, form as emptiness, and the radical “not-two-ness” of all things"
....hmmmm. deep. sound a bit like Maharishi?


She also championed the cause among all faiths, and the anglo-Catholics, holding teaching sessions for the common man.[ circa 1930].


Tozer evidently thought she was "the master of the inner life."...makes you think, huh?

 2010/6/9 13:16
Koheleth
Member



Joined: 2005/11/10
Posts: 530
NC

 Re: Mysticism: A. W. Tozer reconsidered

I realize this is my opinion, but I will offer it anyway. It seems to me if Tozer failed in any matter worth noting, it is not in what he wrote or whom he quoted, but in being a husband and father. It is easy to notice that Tozer did not speak much about the Christian family. He was a most inspiring teacher of private devotion and personal communion with a holy and transcendent God, but appears to have failed in close relationships. Since I do not know the finer details of it all, I still cannot judge him, just make observations.

 2010/6/9 13:58Profile
Goldminer
Member



Joined: 2006/11/7
Posts: 1178
Alabama

 Re:

Luk 17:20 ¶ And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Jhn 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

2Cr 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Jhn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare [it]: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Jhn 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Act 10:9 ¶ On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.

Act 10:30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
31 And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.
32 Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of [one] Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.

Act 9:10 ¶ And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I [am here], Lord.
11 And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for [one] called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting [his] hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

Act 16:9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.

Act 18:9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:

Gen 24:63 And Isaac went out to meditate in the field at the eventide: and he lifted up his eyes, and saw, and, behold, the camels [were] coming.

Jos 1:8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

Psa 1:2 But his delight [is] in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Psa 63:6 When I remember thee upon my bed, [and] meditate on thee in the [night] watches.

Psa 77:12 I will meditate also of all thy work, and talk of thy doings.

2Ch 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of [them] whose heart [is] perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.

Psa 101:6 Mine eyes [shall be] upon the faithful of the land, that they may dwell with me: he that walketh in a perfect way, he shall serve me.

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.

Luk 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

2Cr 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is [one] of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

Jhn 3:30 He must increase, but I [must] decrease.

1Cr 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

2Cr 2:14 Now thanks [be] unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

2Cr 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Phm 1:6 That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.

Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Jhn 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Mat 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

2Cr 10:12 ¶ For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

Each of us has our own individual walk with the Lord. Our understanding is influenced many times by our history and pain, or lack there of. We are called to follow hard after God, that is the goal. How that looks individual to individual is different. We are not all Praying Hyde, John Wesley, Madam Guyon, Franis Chan, David Wilkerson, Art Katz or any other, and we are not to copy any, accept to follow them as they followed Christ, even as Paul said.

We need to not base our understanding on what others did but on what the word says, however, we need to not discount the experiences of others based on our own experience, because as the scriptures show many had visions, trances and experiences from Genesis to Revelation. We are told to share our testimonies, because they encourage others to press in to all God has for them, and numbers have been won to the kingdom through them.

The kingdom of God is within us and comes without observation. When the Lord chose to reveal Himself in me, that light revealed my darkness, I was the first one to know about it. Hallelujah. Then He powerfully filled me with the Holy Spirit, and I was water baptized, coming up to walk in newness of life. I went from being a lousy wife and mother to a devoted one, from sitting on a bar stool, to worshipping the Lord. I have never been the same and the only reason for that is because I have this treasure in my earthen vessel that the glory might go to Him. Praise the Lord.

We would not be told to walk sinless lives if He hadn't given us the grace to do so. Just because we live below that does not make the provision any less available. My pastor once said " we are free not to sin now". We choose to walk in sin, but we can also choose not to. And if we do sin we have loving provision for that as well. It would be well for us to all read 1st, 2nd and 3rd John and see if it is wrong for someone to believe we can't walk in what it says.

I leave you with this to think about:

Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered




_________________
KLC

 2010/6/9 15:38Profile





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