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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Have the faith of God???

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Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

There is only one kind of faith: to believe the sun will rise, the chair will hold me if I sit on it AND believing God (which made deemed Abraham as rightous) unto salvation.

Thinking that it must say, "Have the faith of God" or "have the faith which God has" is to assume that God has faith. The question you must answer is, "what does God believe in to 'have faith'"?

Does God have faith in Himself? That is rediculous.

 2010/6/26 12:15Profile









 Re:

There are two kinds of faith:

1) faith in physical facts, Rom. 4:14

and

2)faith above the law, Rom. 3:3, 4

One is based on observation, and the other is based on what you cannot yet see, respectively.

Granted, Logic, one cannot be without the other, yet usually it is the first and not the second that is adhered to considering it reality.

Faith # 1) is not the faith that pleases God. Jn. 2:23, 24.


Faith #2) satisfies God:

Heb. 11:6

Col. 3:1-2

2 Cor. 4:18, 5:7
This kind of faith is bound within honoring God in FAITHfulness to relationship with(in) Him.

This is the faith of God referred to. See Jn. 3:31.

Rom. 4:16, 17

There is faith that deals with what exists already. Then there is the faith of God, that creates something where it did not previously exist.

Agapeo,
g
Acts 20:32

p.s. God does not have faith. He is faith(ful) and the true (witness).

The greek word Pistis meaning faith also at the same time has in it the meaning faithful. Both english words are interchangable in the meaning of this word in every instance. (Without faithfulness, there is no faith; and vice versa.)

 2010/6/26 14:26









  B T W

BTW, Richard Sipley's site is:

http://www.PreachNow.com.




There's alot of good stuff there saints.



g

 2010/6/26 14:37
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: B T W

Here is a list of places in the NT where the word faith is associated with a noun in the genitive case.

Mark 11:22; Rom 3:22, 26; 4:16; Gal 2:16; 3:22; Phil 3:9; 2 Th 2:13; Heb 11:7; Rev 14:12

If we are going to make Mark 11:22 to mean only 'God's faith' we would need to use the same 'only' interpretation for the rest of the NT uses. However
"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all," Rom 4:16
KJV has the same basic construction and plainly this cannot mean 'faith IN Abraham'; it can 'only' mean Abraham's (kind of) faith.

2 Th 2:13 could only mean 'faith in the truth' and not 'truth's faith'
Heb 11:7 is exactly the same construction as Mark 11:22 but is usually translated something like By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Heb 11:7 NKJV

So we can't categorically say that 'faith' plus a genitive noun always means eg 'God's faith' but neither can we say it can never mean 'God's or Abraham's faith'. This is one of those instances where we must use the context to make an accurate translation and not just individual words.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/6/26 15:02Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

There is only one KIND of faith (belief), but the thing which matters is what/Who one must put their faith in/on.

God is love & love "believes all things" (1 Corinthians 13:7), so one could say that God has faith, but it is nothing diferent than what all mankind has, it is the same KIND of faith as all mankind has...belief. So, to say that we must have the same KIND of faith as God (the faith OF Jesus) makes no ssense, but to have it the correct way as God does is sensible, for He is our standard; we shouls also "believe all things".

 2010/6/26 20:50Profile









 Re: Logic

Logic,

Why do you insist that there is only one kind of faith. If this were the case, then everybody -(having faith that is of the very same nature)- would believe God.



Let's reiterate this another way:

1) there is a measure of faith (given to every man)

and there is

2) the Faith of God, or also known as the Faith of Abraham.



faith of the first type believes what it can see already, and bases everything on the governance and operation of this world. This is human faith(fulness), and is not reliable.

Faith of the second type believes outside the box, with God as the one outsourcing this. This relies on what God says is the ultimate reality, which is usually not physically manifested at the time of believing.

Faith is not just thinking something is a certain way in your head. In fidelity with these thoughts, you will act as though it is so.

# 1) Believes there is a chair that can be sat on, and then goes and sits on it. It is only relative to what is recognized through the senses.

# 2) believes God when he says your name is no longer Abram, but Abraham. Then without a son through His marriage, starts telling everybody God said i am not Abram anymore, but God said i am a father of many nations, so my name is Abraham. This kind of faith believes that everything is spiritual. Because all that exists was created by Gods's Word, everything you do matters.

Should you still insist, more examples can easily follow.

The God kind of faith is not our own type of faith at all. It is recieved through being completely reliant on God, through Jesus Christ.

Whose faith does it speak of in Gal. 2:20 ?
Consider Rom. 1:17 in relation to this.

God Bless,
gregg
Acts 20:32



 2010/6/26 21:26
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

If believing is faith, then there are two kinds, both authored by God. Belief unto a reprobate mind and to destruction and one to life in Christ Jesus the Author and
Perfector of our faith.

ONE;
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Unto destruction.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Unto salvation and eternal life.

True, faith is faith, but it depends on the author of the faith as to what the outcome will be.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Victory faith; 1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

In Christ, by His Faith: Phillip


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Phillip

 2010/6/27 4:01Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Phanetheus asked, "Why do you insist that there is only one kind of faith. "
* because there is only one kind of belief which is what faith means:
Confidence in the truth or existence of something which is not from empirical knowledge (knowledge which is derived from or guided by direct experience or observation)
Rom 8:24 For what a man sees, why does he yet hope (believe/faith) for?

Phanetheus said, "1) there is a measure of faith (given to every man)"
*This "measure of faith" is not about salvific faith or
belief in Christ, but concerning the Christian service as what the context proves.

The "measure of faith" is being differing members in one body (v.4), having different offices (v.4), & differing gifts (.5); that if one person has a certain gift/office &/or being a certain part of the body, he must not think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly (v.3).

Phanetheus said, "2) the Faith of God, or also known as the Faith of Abraham."
* the Faith of Abraham." is not a "kind" of faith, but an example of faith (Heb 11:8 & 17, James 2:21-23).

If you want to call it a "kind of faith" it will be dead "kind" of faith compared to the "living "kind of faith" as with works.

For the rest of what you said, your just making the difference of Who/what the faith is on, not a "kind of faith".

Rom. 1:17 "The righteousness is revealed through means of faithfulness (obedient loyalty), in order to produce faith (belief in Christ) in others."
as it is written, The just shall live by faith (The justified shall live faithfully
or
The faithful will live justly)

 2010/6/27 18:23Profile









 Re:

Logic,

Ok, have it your way, dead faith and living faith.

There we have the two different types, if that is your preference for definition.

No debate about the "measure of faith," though it seems you limit what God will do on your behalf simply because you seem to have trouble reaching beyond the letter.

...and it's not this distinction of who or what the faith is on, but rather Whose faith it is.

Man's faith alone is finite and ultimately dead, confined to what is sensed. It can only make something out of something.

God's faith is infinite, living, and cannot be contained. The faith of God makes anything He choses ex nihilo, merely by speaking it.

God's grace empowers you
To the truth he has called you to;
Therefore, stand in it, go and do!


Agapeo,
g
Acts 20:32


 2010/6/27 19:00
poet
Member



Joined: 2007/2/16
Posts: 231
Longview WA

 Re:

Great thread, As I understand faith, let me put it this way.
the jewish understanding of faith meant faithfullness.
So God was faithful, and he expects us to be faithful.
To have faith in God to them means understand His faithfullness to us through His promises.
But the flip side to this faithfullness was He expected us to be faithful to Him as well.
So when we are told to have the faith of God. We are expected to have the same kind of faithfullness as He has toward us.
This kind of faith is not a kind of believe or mental ascent.
But a kind of trusting in what He says he is going to do and remain faithfull to Him while waiting for His promises to come to pass.
I hope this helps.


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howard

 2010/6/28 2:01Profile





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