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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Doctrine of Trinity

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Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Either Jesus Christ is the very begotten, birthed, given life through the Seed of a Father and the seed of a woman, God the Father and Mary the mother, All man and all God or the bible is completely out of kelter and is totally wrong.

There is no salvation, no redemption, no propituation, no wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, no Savior, no God, which satan would love for every one to believe.

In Christ, by the Father and the life of His Son given for all that are called and chosen to be son's of God by the rebirth of the Incorruptable Seed of the Father in us, which is the Very Spirit of Christ Himself, of whom, if you have Him you have the Father and the Holy Spirit also.

Romans 8:9-14 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2010/6/3 20:22Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
The reason people ever have a hard time with one verse is because they never try to understand the context in which the verse is being used. Hebrews 1:5 has baffled theologians, I think, because they don't get or even encapsulate what Hebrews 1:1-2:4 is even saying.



So true about many many "baffling" passages.


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Travis

 2010/6/3 21:44Profile
Burn4Christ
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Joined: 2007/2/14
Posts: 41


 Re:

Quote:
Look at that verse in context. It is speaking of what was said by God of Jesus in His incarnate form. He was begotten of Mary through the Holy Spirit. He was born a physical human being. That birth was his "begetting" if you will. "



Doesn't the doctrine of the Trinity teach that Christ was eternally begotten? or no? John 5:26

quote"Remember Jesus Himself claimed eternal existence just as the Father, "before Abraham was, I am.

A JW could easily make the claim that he is referring to himself as preexisting Abraham and that the text does not deal with eternality


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Christopher Cox

 2010/6/3 23:37Profile
Areadymind
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Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re:

Quote:
quote"Remember Jesus Himself claimed eternal existence just as the Father, "before Abraham was, I am. A JW could easily make the claim that he is referring to himself as preexisting Abraham and that the text does not deal with eternality



As far as I know there is no one else in the scriptures who spoke like this other than Jesus Christ, and God himself out of the burning bush.

I would think, though I am no scholar, the emphasis was only on Abraham because Jesus was responding to a heart issue about Abraham on the part of his hearers. It would stand to reason that Jesus could have said this about anyone in physical existence. Regardless of eternality, no one precedes him. That is the point. To say before X, I am, is just about either the most broken absurd grammar anyone has ever used, or it means before X, I not only precede, but Am, which implies no beginning and no end. the "am-ness" is a statement that resides outside of the bookends of time.

It is not my intention to demean the questions you are asking or even the questions Jehovah's Witness's are going to ask, but it seems to me that if a person is not willing to understand clear teaching from scripture, and by clear I guess I see that Jesus implication of eternality as clear, that the letter of it will never convince them. When someone has an agenda, that is driven by a motivation to displace the idea of a "Trinity" which is a term that should be used loosely as it is not even a biblical word, it does not seem that much argumentation will convince them.

The cementing of the divinity of Christ and re-iteration of the trinity was a response, as I think has been mentioned in this thread, to Arianism. I believe that if you look up Athanasius on google you will find enough information to piece how all the arguments developed (I may have some of my facts a bit off as it has been a while since I read through all this stuff, though I think John Piper did a good job talking about it on his biographical sketch of Athanasius on D.G.) Most theological structures like the trinity have been developed as a response to heresy. Not necessarily because scripture is blatantly articulate in any one place about the general idea. As Athanasius knew...the kernel of the gospel was about to be swallowed by swine when one denied the divinity of Christ. As a result, lots of study went into the word to grasp the meaning of the Godhead. This was done to insure that the members of the body of Christ would be protected from an idea that could have caused enormous destruction to the furtherance of the gospel.

Sometimes insight into truth occurs when that truth, like a diamond is placed against a velvet black backdrop of lies.

I used to have an interest in debating these kinds of things, and even thought I had good reason to do so, but I have found that no matter how well constructed a biblical argument is, even if it is the clearest most amazingly powerfull truth in the word, people love darkness more than they love light. And if they are not willing to hear what is being said...it does the gospel no good to debate it with them. Truth can never be administered in the presence of pride. Most of these arguments, and even apologetics can be an immense distraction from the calling of God in our lives.

That being said, we ought to be able to destroy arguments that threaten the flocks God gives us. And these kinds of discussions can be healthy to sharpen those swords. But I have found that just seeing people around me develop a thirst for righteousness and the word of God is a million times more important and knee-crackingly challenging than licking an arian in a debate. (Not that I think that is your intention brother, I am only speaking from my own experience.)

What I long to see more of from believers concerning these kinds of issues is a closeness with Christ, an intimacy of relationship, a depth of being so close with the Lord that even as he was close to His Father, when dogs came barking up his tree asking who to give a coin too, we can have the presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives as he did so much due to not quenching Him with the pride of our hearts that we can respond in such a fashion that the dog's are silenced so the sheep can be fed. As in a lot of ways that is what it is all about.

Dog's do get converted, but I would venture to say that from the narrative accounts in scripture it was rare, if ever, that a dog was converted because of any of Jesus' rebuttals to them baring their fangs, at least at the moment of the clash. You will also notice as you study the gospels that when dogs attempted to corner him about things theological in nature...Jesus brandished the sword of the spirit and punctured the core of what their problems were. Which never really seemed to be doctrinal in nature, but were rather, spiritual problems because of pride...lust...envy...bitterness...adultery...jealousy.

I am willing to bet that when lead by the Spirit, it is right to call a man a devil of hell. It is right to tell a sorcerer to have his money burn with him. It is right to pierce through the excuses that every man generates through his cerebral argumentation.

It also seems that one of the principle issues is not the trinity...but faith. As without it, it is impossible to please God, "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it." -Hebrews 4:2

Jesus ALWAYS resisted the proud, but it was as if his heart melted like butter whenever someone showed an inkling of faith. This is the sword we are to bear brothers and sisters. For us as believers it is important to remember that, "Faith worketh by love." Galatians 5:6

Please understand, I think it is good to know the subject matter. It is just that out of dozens and dozens of discussions with these kinds of people, I have rarely seen fruit come of it. Dogs will always think it is spiritual to win a debate. Christ seems to think it is spiritual when a man's fig leaves are finally removed and he is naked before an Almighty God, humbled and unable to hide a thing from Him.








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Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/6/4 1:17Profile
dougwayne
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Joined: 2010/6/21
Posts: 1


 Re: Doctrine of Trinity

jowSOC, you may find this statement from Tertullian to be both interesting and enlightening.

Tertullian in his Against Praxeas (c. 213) writes:

"The simple, indeed, (I will not call them unwise and unlearned,) who always constitute the majority of believers, are startled at the dispensation (of the Three in One), on the ground that their very rule of faith withdraws them from the world's plurality of gods to the one only true God..."

Several things stand out in this statement- one, the author was an early Trinitarian who admits that the majority of the early church was not Trinitarian. Two, he still refers to them as believers.

Tertullians writing is in reference to the earliest held position on the Godhead, Modalism. In this form it does not alter the "Modes" which God manifests so it does not directly apply to one claiming the Holy Spirit is not a person. I would inquire as to what is meant by that because misused terminology can quickly start a needless debate. Defining of terms will save a lot of time and maybe even your voice, lol.

Grace and peace!

 2010/6/21 10:06Profile
joeSOC
Member



Joined: 2006/9/5
Posts: 94
Melbourne Australia

 Re:

Thanks for the posts I appreciate it !

 2010/6/22 21:03Profile
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi,i am too old for this topic...God can and has shown Himself in many ways...more than three ...and what about the ten Spirits of God etc. His ways are above our ways.jimp

 2010/6/22 23:05Profile





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